OK, what the hell has happened to the Brits?

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote in message
...

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote in message
...

"Martin Hotze" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:15:33 GMT, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

I avoid everybody carrying a weapon. And as long as I can decide
it
(!)
nobody with a weapon is entering my house, my office or sitting
in
my
car.
And I turn away from everybody carrying a weapon, I also avoid
beeing
too
close to cops carrying a weapon.


What do you do when those that carry guns don't give a damn what
you
decide?



aaahh! now comes logic from cold war. Give everybody a nuke, but
give
me
one nuke more than him.

Seems to have worked out pretty well, no?


or: ... Zombie (The Cranberries)


How profound.

to your question: so I should arm myself and my family and first
shoot,
then ask? I don't want to life in such a world. Thank you.


Too late; you already do. Now please tell me the logic in depending on
the
goodwill of the lawless and criminal to respect your pascifism. It
really
seems to have worked like a charm in the UK where soon after banning
firearms alltogether, gun related crimes went sky-high.

It is all relative and with hand guns being outlawed completely
possessing
a
gun became a crime. With gun crime being so low any increase looks big.

Funnily enough gun related crime tends to be restricted to the criminals
shooting each other not the public. The main problems in London tend to
be
Russian mafia against Albanian mafia, blacks against blacks (Yardies),
drug
dealers against drug dealers.
What we don't get are kids killing each other by accident because Dad
left
his gun lying about and we don't get wacko kids going into school
blasting
everyone in sight and we don't get guys sniping away at the public
either.

The police here take a firm view with anyone with what looks like a gun.
They shoot them. The assumption is that as there can be no lawful
purpose
to
be waving a gun around then shooting dead someone with a gun who refuses
to
surrender is legitimate.
Therefore the only ones who need to worry are the nuts who like guns and
criminals. Even a toy gun risks getting the holder shot if the police
are
uncertain of the weapon.
Thank fully our police tend to finish gun business with the odd bullet
rather than a shootout.


And you see nothing wrong with this scenario? It dosen't strike you as
maybe
a bit tyrannical that owning a toy gun may get you shot by a police
officer?
You surrender your rights far too easily, and I am afraid that if a
majority
of your population feels similarly, you days as a free people are
numbered.

Nothing wrong with it at all. Guns are illegal. We voted for it, after a
Columbine type incident. We surrendered our licenced sporting guns.
Therefore anyone still with a gun or making out that they were using what
looked like a gun to rob or frighten people must bear the consequences. It
is about personal responsibility and choices.

Having a gun is no big deal. It does not make you a better person. It might
make you feel a bit more secure when there are loads of loonies around with
guns.

Likewise when the chances of meeting someone with a gun is remote do we
worry about being armed? I would only worry if I was mixing with people who
carry guns. As I don't mix with criminals its not an issue.

If our police don't see the need to be constantly armed then why should the
population at large.

Likewise when the chances of meeting someone with a gun is remote do we
worry about being armed? I would only worry if I was mixing with people who
carry guns. As I don't mix with criminals its not an issue.


Oh, you lock yourself up in your castle?

What happens if you encounter a thug with a length of pipe on the way to the
pub?

Which, by the way, if far more likely to happen in London than in Norfolk, VA.

Don


--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

"Wdtabor" wrote in message
...

Likewise when the chances of meeting someone with a gun is remote do we
worry about being armed? I would only worry if I was mixing with people
who
carry guns. As I don't mix with criminals its not an issue.


Oh, you lock yourself up in your castle?

What happens if you encounter a thug with a length of pipe on the way to
the
pub?

Which, by the way, if far more likely to happen in London than in Norfolk,
VA.

Give him my wallet (never more than £20 in it). But its never happened yet.

In article , "Dave"
writes:


What happens if you encounter a thug with a length of pipe on the way to
the
pub?

Which, by the way, if far more likely to happen in London than in Norfolk,
VA.

Give him my wallet (never more than £20 in it). But its never happened yet.



If you think that is an acceptable outcome, then I guess your people are beyond
hope.

England will always be our mother country, but it is sad to see Mom grow old
and senile.

Don
--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Wdtabor" wrote in message
...

Likewise when the chances of meeting someone with a gun is remote do we
worry about being armed? I would only worry if I was mixing with people
who
carry guns. As I don't mix with criminals its not an issue.


Oh, you lock yourself up in your castle?

What happens if you encounter a thug with a length of pipe on the way to
the
pub?

Which, by the way, if far more likely to happen in London than in
Norfolk,
VA.

Give him my wallet (never more than £20 in it). But its never happened
yet.


'Yet' being the operative word. And what happens when they want your car? Or
your house? Or your girlfriend? Or your daughter? If armed rapists break
into your house and have their way with your wife or daughter, who is going
to protect you then? Or are you going to self-rightously explain to your
loved ones how they need to just comply with the wishes of the criminals,
because you no matter how bad it will be, nothing justifys gun ownership?

And mind you, this scenario is FAR more likely to occour if the criminals
are 100% assured that the people in the house have no way to defend
themselves.

Do you see the problem with abject pascifism? No, probably not. So go ahead
and allow criminals to have their way with you and your family, weather it's
a $20 stickup or a gang rape. And as they rape your daughter or beat you
with baseball bats for whatever little cash you may have, you can rest easy
knowing that your pascifist ideals are intact.

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote in message
...

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Wdtabor" wrote in message
...

Likewise when the chances of meeting someone with a gun is remote do
we
worry about being armed? I would only worry if I was mixing with
people
who
carry guns. As I don't mix with criminals its not an issue.


Oh, you lock yourself up in your castle?

What happens if you encounter a thug with a length of pipe on the way
to
the
pub?

Which, by the way, if far more likely to happen in London than in
Norfolk,
VA.

Give him my wallet (never more than £20 in it). But its never happened
yet.


'Yet' being the operative word. And what happens when they want your car?
Or
your house? Or your girlfriend? Or your daughter? If armed rapists break
into your house and have their way with your wife or daughter, who is
going
to protect you then? Or are you going to self-rightously explain to your
loved ones how they need to just comply with the wishes of the criminals,
because you no matter how bad it will be, nothing justifys gun ownership?

And mind you, this scenario is FAR more likely to occour if the criminals
are 100% assured that the people in the house have no way to defend
themselves.

Do you see the problem with abject pascifism? No, probably not. So go
ahead
and allow criminals to have their way with you and your family, weather
it's
a $20 stickup or a gang rape. And as they rape your daughter or beat you
with baseball bats for whatever little cash you may have, you can rest
easy
knowing that your pascifist ideals are intact.

Maybe its just that people behave differently here that the risk is so small
that the chances of violent assault are so small that the solutions you
propose are out of proportion to the risk -the first rule of insurance.

Secondly if I was to be held up the aim is to not get in a fight but to
survive. Not about being a pascifist, its about being smart and knowing when
to fight and when not to fight.

I was held up at knive point in South Africa last year by two black youths.
The main aim was to get the guy with the knive as far away from me as
possible. So I let him have the camera and threw 100 rand ( $10) on the
floor. He dropped the camera, which I picked up and then fled empty handed.
No point having a fight.

FWIW Brits have more chance of being robbed and murdered on vacation in
Florida than we do in our own country. On your hypothesis we should all be
issued with guns on entry to the US to give us a fair chance.

And also FWIW Europeans dont fear guns. As was pointed out earlier they are
inanimate objects absolutely useless until a persons picks on up. The fear
is about who can and who has access to guns and their attitute to using
them.
The gun is never the problem its the person.

As for the Americans war on terrorism, they were pretty absent when we were
fighting the Irish terrorists in fact many of them were funding Irish
terrorist organisations. Not exactly a consistent policy.

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote in message
...


Do you see the problem with abject pascifism? No, probably not. So go
ahead
and allow criminals to have their way with you and your family, weather
it's
a $20 stickup or a gang rape. And as they rape your daughter or beat you
with baseball bats for whatever little cash you may have, you can rest
easy
knowing that your pascifist ideals are intact.

Maybe its just that people behave differently here that the risk is so
small
that the chances of violent assault are so small that the solutions you
propose are out of proportion to the risk -the first rule of insurance.

Famous last words!!


Secondly if I was to be held up the aim is to not get in a fight but to
survive.

That's probably not YOUR aim, but in words of the old cliche, "It takes two
to tango".

Not about being a pascifist, its about being smart and knowing when
to fight and when not to fight.

You're confusing "when" with the ability TO fight.


I was held up at knive point in South Africa last year by two black
youths.
The main aim was to get the guy with the knive as far away from me as
possible. So I let him have the camera and threw 100 rand ( $10) on the
floor. He dropped the camera, which I picked up and then fled empty
handed.
No point having a fight.

You were lucky...that time. Many others are not so fortunate.


FWIW Brits have more chance of being robbed and murdered on vacation in
Florida than we do in our own country.

Care to support that claim? You know you can't. AAMOF, you're in more danger
in your own country than in our worst place (New York). (Other than when
criminals targeted tourists KNOWING that they, unlike the locals, were
DEFINITELY unarmed).

On your hypothesis we should all be
issued with guns on entry to the US to give us a fair chance.

Non-sequitur.


And also FWIW Europeans dont fear guns. As was pointed out earlier they
are
inanimate objects absolutely useless until a persons picks on up. The fear
is about who can and who has access to guns and their attitute to using
them.

Non-sequitur #2.

The gun is never the problem its the person.

As for the Americans war on terrorism, they were pretty absent when we
were
fighting the Irish terrorists in fact many of them were funding Irish
terrorist organisations. Not exactly a consistent policy.

Non-sequitur #3.

Damn...is your Public Indoctrination ...I mean Education, System as screwed
up as our?

In article , "Dave"
writes:


FWIW Brits have more chance of being robbed and murdered on vacation in
Florida than we do in our own country. On your hypothesis we should all be
issued with guns on entry to the US to give us a fair chance.


Not true.

Muggings and especially home invasions are far more prevalent in Britain,
Germany and France than here in the States.

Murders, usually one gang banger shooting another, are the only violent crime
more prevalent here.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." wrote in message
...

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Wdtabor" wrote in message
...

Likewise when the chances of meeting someone with a gun is remote
do
we
worry about being armed? I would only worry if I was mixing with
people
who
carry guns. As I don't mix with criminals its not an issue.


Oh, you lock yourself up in your castle?

What happens if you encounter a thug with a length of pipe on the
way
to
the
pub?

Which, by the way, if far more likely to happen in London than in
Norfolk,
VA.

Give him my wallet (never more than £20 in it). But its never happened
yet.


'Yet' being the operative word. And what happens when they want your
car?
Or
your house? Or your girlfriend? Or your daughter? If armed rapists break
into your house and have their way with your wife or daughter, who is
going
to protect you then? Or are you going to self-rightously explain to your
loved ones how they need to just comply with the wishes of the
criminals,
because you no matter how bad it will be, nothing justifys gun
ownership?

And mind you, this scenario is FAR more likely to occour if the
criminals
are 100% assured that the people in the house have no way to defend
themselves.

Do you see the problem with abject pascifism? No, probably not. So go
ahead
and allow criminals to have their way with you and your family, weather
it's
a $20 stickup or a gang rape. And as they rape your daughter or beat you
with baseball bats for whatever little cash you may have, you can rest
easy
knowing that your pascifist ideals are intact.

Maybe its just that people behave differently here that the risk is so
small
that the chances of violent assault are so small that the solutions you
propose are out of proportion to the risk -the first rule of insurance.

????!

I've been to the UK -- home of the soccer riot -- several times, and I can
assure you that it's not all tea and crumpets over there, despite the facade
you all try to put on. There is just as much crime, the streets are just as
dirty, the air is just as polluted and the people and culture are every bit
as violent as anything you can find in the USA (and I grew up and currently
live in New York City). Period.

The difference is that you people are all beginning to believe your own
bull**** about the sophistication and high-mindedness of your society. This
of course serves to no ones advantage more than the criminal element, who,
while you all walk around patting each other on the back for that utopian
accomplishment of 'banning guns', the criminals gleefully bask in their
newfound freedom to take whatever they need from you.

You said it yourself, if a criminal with a pipe asked for your wallet, you'd
gladly hand it over. To you, it's only 20 pounds, but to the criminal, it's
a great way to make a living. Do that a mere 4 or 5 times a day, and he's
doing alright for himself, especially compounded with the welfare he's
undoubtably on.

So you see, you've managed to create a wonderful new criminal class.

And by the way, any society in which a large number of citizens beat each
other into a bloody pulp on a regular basis over a sporting event (much less
soccer) has no right to call themselves 'nonviolent'.

When was the last time anyone was killed at a baseball game?


Secondly if I was to be held up the aim is to not get in a fight but to
survive. Not about being a pascifist, its about being smart and knowing
when
to fight and when not to fight.


But again, you are leaving that choice -- one of your very survival -- in
the hands of a criminal. If you are unable to defend yourself, and he knows
that for a 100% fact, then like it or not, HE is the one calling the shots,
not you. Even if you cheerfully comply with every single demand he makes,
there is no guarantee that he won't kill you or your family just for the
hell of it. You have removed any option for fighting back, and have adopted
pasifism by default.

I was held up at knive point in South Africa last year by two black
youths.
The main aim was to get the guy with the knive as far away from me as
possible. So I let him have the camera and threw 100 rand ( $10) on the
floor. He dropped the camera, which I picked up and then fled empty
handed.
No point having a fight.


So you got mugged by two incompetant criminals. And in most situations, the
best move is probably to just give the guy the lousy $10 and hope he chokes
on it. BUT, your country has eliminated any means for the citizenry to
defend itself against anything at all, thus swinging the doors wide open for
criminals to take advantage of the population in ways far more numerous and
egregious than a random petty theft.


FWIW Brits have more chance of being robbed and murdered on vacation in
Florida than we do in our own country.

That is simply not true.


On your hypothesis we should all be
issued with guns on entry to the US to give us a fair chance.

And also FWIW Europeans dont fear guns. As was pointed out earlier they
are
inanimate objects absolutely useless until a persons picks on up. The fear
is about who can and who has access to guns and their attitute to using
them.
The gun is never the problem its the person.

Well, yes, that is in fact true. However, all you have done by making guns
illegal is to ensure that the only people who don't have them are the
law-abiding citizens. Criminals who are going to commit a crime anyway
simply disregard the gun laws as well.

As for the Americans war on terrorism, they were pretty absent when we
were
fighting the Irish terrorists in fact many of them were funding Irish
terrorist organisations. Not exactly a consistent policy.


That is not exactly the same thing, although I would probably say that if
the level of Irish terrorism was, today, at the same level it was in the
80's, the American attitude towards it would be far, far different, as 9/11
has changed everything.

????!

I've been to the UK -- home of the soccer riot -- several times, and I can
assure you that it's not all tea and crumpets over there, despite the
facade
you all try to put on. There is just as much crime, the streets are just
as
dirty, the air is just as polluted and the people and culture are every
bit
as violent as anything you can find in the USA (and I grew up and
currently
live in New York City). Period.

The difference is that you people are all beginning to believe your own
bull**** about the sophistication and high-mindedness of your society.
This
of course serves to no ones advantage more than the criminal element, who,
while you all walk around patting each other on the back for that utopian
accomplishment of 'banning guns', the criminals gleefully bask in their
newfound freedom to take whatever they need from you.

You said it yourself, if a criminal with a pipe asked for your wallet,
you'd
gladly hand it over. To you, it's only 20 pounds, but to the criminal,
it's
a great way to make a living. Do that a mere 4 or 5 times a day, and he's
doing alright for himself, especially compounded with the welfare he's
undoubtably on.

So you see, you've managed to create a wonderful new criminal class.

And by the way, any society in which a large number of citizens beat each
other into a bloody pulp on a regular basis over a sporting event (much
less
soccer) has no right to call themselves 'nonviolent'.

When was the last time anyone was killed at a baseball game?


Secondly if I was to be held up the aim is to not get in a fight but to
survive. Not about being a pascifist, its about being smart and knowing
when
to fight and when not to fight.


But again, you are leaving that choice -- one of your very survival -- in
the hands of a criminal. If you are unable to defend yourself, and he
knows
that for a 100% fact, then like it or not, HE is the one calling the
shots,
not you. Even if you cheerfully comply with every single demand he makes,
there is no guarantee that he won't kill you or your family just for the
hell of it. You have removed any option for fighting back, and have
adopted
pasifism by default.

I was held up at knive point in South Africa last year by two black
youths.
The main aim was to get the guy with the knive as far away from me as
possible. So I let him have the camera and threw 100 rand ( $10) on the
floor. He dropped the camera, which I picked up and then fled empty
handed.
No point having a fight.


So you got mugged by two incompetant criminals. And in most situations,
the
best move is probably to just give the guy the lousy $10 and hope he
chokes
on it. BUT, your country has eliminated any means for the citizenry to
defend itself against anything at all, thus swinging the doors wide open
for
criminals to take advantage of the population in ways far more numerous
and
egregious than a random petty theft.


FWIW Brits have more chance of being robbed and murdered on vacation in
Florida than we do in our own country.

That is simply not true.


On your hypothesis we should all be
issued with guns on entry to the US to give us a fair chance.

And also FWIW Europeans dont fear guns. As was pointed out earlier they
are
inanimate objects absolutely useless until a persons picks on up. The
fear
is about who can and who has access to guns and their attitute to using
them.
The gun is never the problem its the person.

Well, yes, that is in fact true. However, all you have done by making guns
illegal is to ensure that the only people who don't have them are the
law-abiding citizens. Criminals who are going to commit a crime anyway
simply disregard the gun laws as well.

As for the Americans war on terrorism, they were pretty absent when we
were
fighting the Irish terrorists in fact many of them were funding Irish
terrorist organisations. Not exactly a consistent policy.


That is not exactly the same thing, although I would probably say that if
the level of Irish terrorism was, today, at the same level it was in the
80's, the American attitude towards it would be far, far different, as
9/11
has changed everything.


Great post Thomas....................