FAA: 157 airspace violations since 9/11

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:PNmJb.733077$Fm2.638775@attbi_s04...

I can only shake my head in disbelief that 157 pilots could make such a
mistake -- it makes us all look ridiculous. I mean, this isn't Mayor
Daley's suburban Chicago house, for chrissakes, this is the PRESIDENT'S
residence. Even us bumpkin pilots from Ioway know where THOSE are, and
surely any pilot should be able to steer a wide berth around 'em.

OK, Jay....I'll make you a deal. I'll dump you out between HGR and MRB and
you tell me where P40 is. No fair using the GPS.

OK, Jay....I'll make you a deal. I'll dump you out between HGR and MRB
and
you tell me where P40 is. No fair using the GPS.

Although I suspect I could figure it out with my VORs (assuming they still
work -- we haven't turned 'em on in a few months), why would it be "no fair"
using the best navigational tool in my plane?

Or are you implying that the 157 pilots who flew over the President's homes
didn't have access to GPS?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message news:3ff6048d$0$32330

OK, Jay....I'll make you a deal. I'll dump you out between HGR and MRB
and
you tell me where P40 is. No fair using the GPS.


I would say that if you fly arount those areas, you should get., and use
GPS......or steer a
wide berth.

I agree with Jay. A few are going to screw it up for all of us, if no
changes are made.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message ...

I would say that if you fly arount those areas, you should get., and use
GPS......or steer a
wide berth.

I agree with Jay. A few are going to screw it up for all of us, if no
changes are made.

I could be mistaken, but I think Ron's point was that the area
in question is a pure "paper boundry", where there are very
few natural landmarks to guide the pilot. And GPS isn't infalliable.
The expanded TFR isn't necessarily in the database as restricted
airspace. Its centroid may not be in there as a waypoint. And
while the savvy GPS-using pilot can add both, depending upon the
model of GPS it may not be easy to display the addition while
using the GPS to navigate. So if you're navigating by GPS, you
may need to figure out the boundry by some other means (visually
or by VORs).

I concur that changes need to be made, but I think some of the
needed changes involve charting and database changes, or changes
to the way TFRs are defined to make them easier to identify
visually. Unfortunately, even pilot interest groups hesitate to
lobby for such changes because they're afraid that charting,
database, and boundry changes would simply codify the "temporary"
TFRs and make them more likely to become permanent.

Cheers,
Sydney

Snowbird wrote:

I could be mistaken, but I think Ron's point was that the area
in question is a pure "paper boundry", where there are very
few natural landmarks to guide the pilot. And GPS isn't infalliable.

Neither are the pilots of the interceptors, nor the ATC personel, but if *they*
make a mistake, it's still the GA pilot who gets charged. The last time this
came up, it became apparent that many, if not most, of the violations were not
the fault of a GA pilot.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

In article , Ron
Natalie wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:PNmJb.733077$Fm2.638775@attbi_s04...

I can only shake my head in disbelief that 157 pilots could make such a
mistake -- it makes us all look ridiculous. I mean, this isn't Mayor
Daley's suburban Chicago house, for chrissakes, this is the PRESIDENT'S
residence. Even us bumpkin pilots from Ioway know where THOSE are, and
surely any pilot should be able to steer a wide berth around 'em.

OK, Jay....I'll make you a deal. I'll dump you out between HGR and MRB and
you tell me where P40 is. No fair using the GPS.


Well that's not quite fair, Ron. Pilots are not "dumped out" into an
area. They fly into an area. If I was flying between HGR and MRB I'd
dial in the FDK 325 radial and remain west of it. P-40 is not hard to
avoid, even without GPS. There are a half dozen VOR's around it. This
should not be a hard thing to do for a competant pilot. If you are
flying NORDO you should be aware of landmarks in the area and give the
restricted area an extra wide berth. AOPA has been diligent about
posting the P-40 expansions and they are normally issued days before
they occur. I agree with Jay, there is no excuse for violating these
areas nowadays.

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
In article , Ron
Natalie wrote:

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:PNmJb.733077$Fm2.638775@attbi_s04...

I can only shake my head in disbelief that 157 pilots could make such a
mistake -- it makes us all look ridiculous. I mean, this isn't Mayor
Daley's suburban Chicago house, for chrissakes, this is the PRESIDENT'S
residence. Even us bumpkin pilots from Ioway know where THOSE are, and
surely any pilot should be able to steer a wide berth around 'em.

OK, Jay....I'll make you a deal. I'll dump you out between HGR and MRB and
you tell me where P40 is. No fair using the GPS.


Well that's not quite fair, Ron. Pilots are not "dumped out" into an
area. They fly into an area. If I was flying between HGR and MRB I'd
dial in the FDK 325 radial and remain west of it. P-40 is not hard to
avoid, even without GPS.

I didn't say there was an excuse. It IS charted and people should be aware
(as I say, I used to always give it a wide berth even before 9/11). However
Jay's bleatings make it sound like it's somehow prominately marked like the
White House. I was just pointing out that most people don't have a clue
where Camp David is. Nothing on the charts or the NOTAMS say "Hey,
this is where Camp David is." It's just another restricted area (of which there
are tons in the South East).

I was just pointing out that most people don't have a clue
where Camp David is. Nothing on the charts or the NOTAMS say "Hey,
this is where Camp David is." It's just another restricted area (of
which there
are tons in the South East).

Most people ain't pilots.

I would hope we're better than this, but apparently we're not.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"