Question: "Overhead Entry to Downwind?"

In article ,
"Harry Shin" wrote:

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
Now, Harry, did YOU announce YOUR entry into the pattern? I realize that
it is not required, but it IS good practice.

Orval,

First sentence (!), "My father and I were returning to Petaluma (O69),
called in on the 45 to downwind..." (and all other legs as well, FWIW)

You formation guys need to pay more attention...

Harry


Harry:

If that is your attitude, maybe YOU need to adjust YOUR attitude!

If you called the 45, you were NOT in the traffic pattern! Did you pay
attention to the frequency? Did the formation call "initial"?

I have seen so-called "pattern operations" flying extra wide downwinds
and two mile finals -- enough to land several flights of four.
Generally, our formation flights keep it in tight and have about ten
seconds spacing on landing.

BTW, your reference to "spoiling a formation landing" shows you know
nothing about formation flying. They came overhead in the break and, as
such, would have been landing individually, with one rolling out as the
next touched down.

If that is your attitude, maybe YOU need to adjust YOUR attitude!

If you called the 45, you were NOT in the traffic pattern! Did you pay
attention to the frequency? Did the formation call "initial"?

As I warned in my post, when you (that is, the original poster) start
to question the holy right of libertarian pilots to do what they
damned well please in the pattern, you are going to get some heated
replies.

My own policy is this: when there are idiots in the pattern, either
take your best shot to get on the ground safely, or go away and land
somewhere else. These people have closed minds, and they are flying
airplanes that can kill you.

My favorite example of this sort of booby was the *instructor* who had
his student fly *straight in* to a field where neither had landed
before, that was marked "heavy flight training," and that did its
training in NORDO aircraft -- and then bawled out the Cub driver on
base for not listening to the radio calls!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
Harry:

If that is your attitude, maybe YOU need to adjust YOUR attitude!

snip

BTW, your reference to "spoiling a formation landing" shows you know
nothing about formation flying. They came overhead in the break and, as
such, would have been landing individually, with one rolling out as the
next touched down.

Orval,

Your concern is sincerely appreciated but please don't worry, my attitude is
fine. I followed the recommended pattern entry at a busy uncontrolled
field. I do think, however, your undies may be a little tight.

Regarding my misnomer of "formation landing", you're absolutely correct and
I apologize. Having now had the privilege to fly (unintentionally) with
these fine airmen, slotted in the Number 3 position (original Number 3
became Number 4, or possibly we became Numbers 3a and 3b), we landed in
sequence to the adoration of cheering crowds, or maybe it was only a guy
walking his dog who didn't even notice the little airplanes land...

Regards,
Harry

In article ,
"Harry Shin" wrote:

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
Harry:

If that is your attitude, maybe YOU need to adjust YOUR attitude!

snip

BTW, your reference to "spoiling a formation landing" shows you know
nothing about formation flying. They came overhead in the break and, as
such, would have been landing individually, with one rolling out as the
next touched down.

Orval,

Your concern is sincerely appreciated but please don't worry, my attitude is
fine. I followed the recommended pattern entry at a busy uncontrolled
field. I do think, however, your undies may be a little tight.

Regarding my misnomer of "formation landing", you're absolutely correct and
I apologize. Having now had the privilege to fly (unintentionally) with
these fine airmen, slotted in the Number 3 position (original Number 3
became Number 4, or possibly we became Numbers 3a and 3b), we landed in
sequence to the adoration of cheering crowds, or maybe it was only a guy
walking his dog who didn't even notice the little airplanes land...

Regards,
Harry



Harry:

It appears that your real complaint is that the three were flying
formation and did an overhead approach -- both of which, if properly
done, are safe, legal and efficient. In my original post, I conceded
that it appears that the flight leader screwed up in breaking ahead of
you. What else do you want?

Are you jealous that others have practiced and enjoy flying formation?
Is it "airplane envy"? Your second paragraph indicates an attitude
problem.

Sounds like the real story here is a guy got cut off in the pattern and was
rightfully ****ed about it, but PO'd another guy by making a blanket
statement about formation flyers.

C'mon guys.. Lighten up. Both of you sound reasonable (but annoyed), just
let it go...

KB

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news

Are you jealous that others have practiced and enjoy flying formation?
Is it "airplane envy"? Your second paragraph indicates an attitude
problem.

Orval,

Hmmm. By your own analysis, these "others have practiced and enjoy flying
formation" did a lousy job, so I'm certainly not jealous of them.

As far as "airplane envy" and my so-called "attitude problem", I guess I
should feel honored that these guys chose to create an un-necessary
situation, with my father and I trying desperately to see where they were
going, and trying to make sure the two in the low wing planes didn't nail
us.

With respect to my "attitude problem", I suppose it's just a case where it
seems some people take themselves Way Too Seriously. "White flight", ten
second landing intervals, "break now!"; you guys should join the Boy Scouts
so you can practice marching in step (turns can be very difficult). I've
also heard it's fun to wear camoflauge to play paintball... (oops, there's
that damn attitude thing again! sorry...)

Roger Out!,
Harry

"Harry Shin" wrote in message
...

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news

Are you jealous that others have practiced and enjoy flying formation?
Is it "airplane envy"? Your second paragraph indicates an attitude
problem.

Orval,

Hmmm. By your own analysis, these "others have practiced and enjoy flying
formation" did a lousy job, so I'm certainly not jealous of them.

As far as "airplane envy" and my so-called "attitude problem", I guess I
should feel honored that these guys chose to create an un-necessary
situation, with my father and I trying desperately to see where they were
going, and trying to make sure the two in the low wing planes didn't nail
us.

With respect to my "attitude problem", I suppose it's just a case where it
seems some people take themselves Way Too Seriously. "White flight", ten
second landing intervals, "break now!"; you guys should join the Boy
Scouts
so you can practice marching in step (turns can be very difficult). I've
also heard it's fun to wear camoflauge to play paintball... (oops, there's
that damn attitude thing again! sorry...)

Roger Out!,
Harry



Did you ever think that they had you in sight and knew that two were able to
enter downwind without causing a conflict and the third would fit in nicely
behind you? In my experience those that fly formation are more capable than
the pilot that can't deal with anything but the 45 degree entry to downwind
and you know the rest.

Dave Stadt wrote:
"Harry Shin" wrote in message
...

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
Are you jealous that others have practiced and enjoy flying formation?
Is it "airplane envy"? Your second paragraph indicates an attitude
problem.

Orval,

Hmmm. By your own analysis, these "others have practiced and enjoy flying
formation" did a lousy job, so I'm certainly not jealous of them.

As far as "airplane envy" and my so-called "attitude problem", I guess I
should feel honored that these guys chose to create an un-necessary
situation, with my father and I trying desperately to see where they were
going, and trying to make sure the two in the low wing planes didn't nail
us.

With respect to my "attitude problem", I suppose it's just a case where it
seems some people take themselves Way Too Seriously. "White flight", ten
second landing intervals, "break now!"; you guys should join the Boy

Scouts

so you can practice marching in step (turns can be very difficult). I've
also heard it's fun to wear camoflauge to play paintball... (oops, there's
that damn attitude thing again! sorry...)

Roger Out!,
Harry




Did you ever think that they had you in sight and knew that two were able to
enter downwind without causing a conflict and the third would fit in nicely
behind you? In my experience those that fly formation are more capable than
the pilot that can't deal with anything but the 45 degree entry to downwind
and you know the rest.





Hi guys...

Just a question - what is this 45 degree entry to downwind we keep
hearing about? I'm from the other side of the world and that's not
something I was taught - instead, like the guys from the UK, I do an
overhead join at an uncontrolled field, descending on the non-traffic
side, especially if unsure of the circuit direction. Here, most of our
smaller airfields are totally deserted, so there's no-one to observe to
determine circuit direction...

Thanks!

Chris
New Zealand

Just a question - what is this 45 degree entry to downwind we keep
hearing about? I'm from the other side of the world and that's not
something I was taught - instead, like the guys from the UK, I do an
overhead join at an uncontrolled field,

It is part of the recommended approach in the U.S., and is so commonly
used that alternative entries are upsetting to many pilots.

It really doesn't matter how you approach an airport, but it sure
helps if everyone does it the same way.

Since I fly a high-wing airplane, however, I would prefer that people
not descend upon me while I'm in the pattern. As an alternative to the
45, I would choose a mid-field crossover to the downwind, but not if
there's a NORDO aircraft in the pattern. He's expecting traffic to
enter from his right, not his left.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com