Question: "Overhead Entry to Downwind?"

Mike O'Malley wrote:

Please explain to me how it is possible to "enter on a 45 to the downwind"
AND "make all turns to the left in the traffic pattern" (that is paraphrased
from memory).

The 45 entry to downwind is not "in the pattern". It is the entry to the pattern
and does nopt have to be a left turn.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...

The 45 entry to downwind is not "in the pattern". It is the entry to the
pattern
and does nopt have to be a left turn.


The regulation does not require turns "in the pattern" to be to the left, it
requires the pilot of an airplane approaching to land at an airport without
an operating control tower to make all turns to the left. The 45 degree
entry to downwind violates the regulation.

The 45 degree
entry to downwind violates the regulation.

Shall we arrest the FAA, then?

all the best -- Dan Ford
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"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Shall we arrest the FAA, then?


From a pilot's viewpoint, I do not see a downside to that.

"Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

The regulation does not require turns "in the pattern" to be to the left, it
requires the pilot of an airplane approaching to land at an airport without
an operating control tower to make all turns to the left. The 45 degree
entry to downwind violates the regulation.

While I'm inclined to agree with you that you have the
better interpretation of that regulation, it's also clear
that the FAA recommends a procedure that on its face seems
to be illegal. If the FAA's recommendation is legal, then
the logical reason must be that making the 45 right turn
entry to the pattern occurs before the pilot is "approaching
to land." It seems odd, given that the 45 entry is part of
the defined pattern for the approach to landing, but I've
seen the language in other FAR's strained farther than that.
Todd Pattist
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I read an NTSB decision that violated a 135 operator for turning a 5
mile final from a right base. If that is considered "approaching to
land", then surely the 45 entry must be also.


On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 08:45:34 -0500, Todd Pattist
wrote:

"Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

The regulation does not require turns "in the pattern" to be to the left, it
requires the pilot of an airplane approaching to land at an airport without
an operating control tower to make all turns to the left. The 45 degree
entry to downwind violates the regulation.

While I'm inclined to agree with you that you have the
better interpretation of that regulation, it's also clear
that the FAA recommends a procedure that on its face seems
to be illegal. If the FAA's recommendation is legal, then
the logical reason must be that making the 45 right turn
entry to the pattern occurs before the pilot is "approaching
to land." It seems odd, given that the 45 entry is part of
the defined pattern for the approach to landing, but I've
seen the language in other FAR's strained farther than that.
Todd Pattist
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Bill Zaleski wrote:

I read an NTSB decision that violated a 135 operator for turning a 5
mile final from a right base. If that is considered "approaching to
land", then surely the 45 entry must be also.

I read it too. It was his base to final turn. We're
talking about a 45 entry turn that is 2 turns before the
base to final turn. You tell me - is distance or number of
turns more important? How about time? There must be some
transition between "not yet approaching to land" and
"approaching to land," but I don't think we can say that
it's always illegal to make right hand turns within 5 miles
of the airport you want to land at.
Todd Pattist
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"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...

I read it too. It was his base to final turn. We're
talking about a 45 entry turn that is 2 turns before the
base to final turn. You tell me - is distance or number of
turns more important? How about time? There must be some
transition between "not yet approaching to land" and
"approaching to land," but I don't think we can say that
it's always illegal to make right hand turns within 5 miles
of the airport you want to land at.


The regulation says when approaching to land at an airport without an
operating control tower each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of
that airplane to the left. Logically, any turn made for the purpose of
aligning the airplane with the landing runway is such a turn and must be
made to the left. That would include all turns in the pattern and the
pattern entry.

"Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

The regulation says when approaching to land at an airport without an
operating control tower each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of
that airplane to the left.

Agreed. I submit, that it is legal to make right hand turns
in airplanes at some point during flight after departure and
prior to landing. I also submit that during that period of
time when it is legal to make such right turns that one is
*not* "approaching to land." Consequently, I submit that
there is a dividing line between the "not approaching to
land" when it is legal to turn right and "approaching to
land" when the FAR's prohibit it. That dividing line will
come into play if any of us are ever accused of violating
91.126.

Logically, any turn made for the purpose of
aligning the airplane with the landing runway is such a turn and must be
made to the left. That would include all turns in the pattern and the
pattern entry.

If you are right, then the 45 entry is in violation of
91.126. However, I have my doubts that the application of
"logic" is particularly useful in interpreting the FAR's.:-)
It's probably better to look at the Chief Counsel's
interpretations and the NTSB hearing records

To my knowledge, no pilot has ever been violated for a 45
entry, and many cases have upheld the AIM's recommendations
as good operating practices, so 45 entries are pretty safe
to use, and the disparity between the AIM and 91.126 is
little more than a curiosity that the FAA likes to ignore.
Todd Pattist
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it's also clear
that the FAA recommends a procedure that on its face seems
to be illegal.

What makes it illegal? The requirement to make left turns (except when
making right turns!) is an FAA requirement. No legislature passed this
law.

What the FAA requires, the FAA can amend.

You know that it is not a law. Think: if you bust the requirement,
will the local sheriff come out and arrest you? No. The FAA will lift
your certificate at worst. There is merely an institutional
requirement, and to enforce it there is an institutional remedy. There
is nothing "illegal" about it.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com