Question: "Overhead Entry to Downwind?"

"C J Campbell"
wrote:


| Pelican's Perch #30:
| The 45-Degree Zealots
| http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182100-1.html

Good article, but I see nowhere that he says a 45 degree entry is illegal.

I quote from that article:

"I can make a very good case that the classic 45-degree
entry is itself a violation of the FARs,..."

Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
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Share what you learn.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

Good article, but I see nowhere that he says a 45 degree entry is illegal.


In about the middle of the article Deakin writes:

"In fact, I can make a very good case that the classic 45-degree entry is
itself a violation of the FARs, since it is ALWAYS in the opposite direction
to the established flow of traffic. Since it is the final turn onto the
downwind leg, it must certainly be in the "vicinity" of the airport, and
therefore covered by the above regs!"

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...
|
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
| ...
|
| Good article, but I see nowhere that he says a 45 degree entry is
illegal.
|
|
| In about the middle of the article Deakin writes:
|
| "In fact, I can make a very good case that the classic 45-degree entry is
| itself a violation of the FARs, since it is ALWAYS in the opposite
direction
| to the established flow of traffic. Since it is the final turn onto the
| downwind leg, it must certainly be in the "vicinity" of the airport, and
| therefore covered by the above regs!"

Then in that case I have to disagree with him on that point.

It might be interesting to get a couple of FSDO interpretations.

****It might be interesting to get a couple of FSDO interpretations.****

That, and $3.75, will buy you a cup of coffee.

Karl

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

Then in that case I have to disagree with him on that point.


On what basis?

Good article, thanks for posting it. Now please allow me to chew it up a
bit...

Mr. Deakin stated: "Rubbish to both, I say. I say there is no good evidence
either way that any one type of pattern entry is any safer than any other."

This is not correct. The safest traffic pattern entry is the one that is
flown correctly and consistently by everyone.

Mr. Deakin next moved on to the FAR's, specifically: 91.126 Operating on or
in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace.

The relevant portion of 91.126 is this::
(b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an
operating control tower in a Class G airspace area -

(1) Each pilot of an airplane [NOTE: only airplanes!] must make all turns
of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light
signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the
right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

As I have previously stated, I believe this is not being interpreted
correctly. I believe that the purpose of this regulation is to define a
default traffic pattern direction. It basically states that "left traffic"
will be the standard, unless there are specific indications that one should
fly "right traffic".

By defining "left traffic" as the default direction, this eliminates the
problem of some pilots flying "left traffic" while others fly "right
traffic".

Now, allow me to provide a few quotes from the Preface to the AIM: "This
manual is designed to provide the aviation community with basic flight
information and ATC procedures for use in the National Airspace System (NAS)
of the United States...This manual contains the fundamentals required to fly
in the United States NAS...This publication, while not regulatory, provides
information which reflects examples of operating techniques and procedures
which may be requirements in other federal publications or regulations. It
is made available solely to assist pilots in executing their
responsibilities required by other publications."

From this, it would be a reasonable interpretation that the purpose of the
AIM is to provide a set of "best practices"; a method of performing
operations in a specific manner that will comply with regulations.

Now examine: "AIM 4-24, Chapter 4-Air Traffic Control, Section 3-Airport
Operations".

Figure 4-3-2 Provides an illustration of traffic pattern operations. It
shows a 45 degree pattern entry with a right turn onto downwind, with all
turns inside the pattern being left turns. Obviously all turn directions are
reversed for right traffic.

This would indicate that the FAA's preferred method for pattern entry is a
45 degree entry with a right turn into "left traffic" or a left turn into
"right traffic".

Again, let me note that I am a wannabe; I am anxiously awaiting the
implementation of the Sport Pilot License. But via: my varied occupations, I
have extensive experience interpreting various rules, regulations, and
supplemental materials published both by various governments and private
industry. So, I feel quite confident of my interpretations. But if I am
demonstrably incorrect, please let me know...







"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...
|
| "Mike O'Malley" wrote in message
| ...
|
| Please explain to me how it is possible to "enter on a 45 to the
downwind"
| AND "make all turns to the left in the traffic pattern" (that is
| paraphrased
| from memory).
|
|
| It isn't. The 45 degree entry to the downwind is illegal.

No, it is not. The regulation says "unless otherwise authorized," and
the
45
degree entry is specifically authorized as a legal maneuver in a
document
signed by the Administrator (the AIM). The AIM may not be regulatory,
but
following the procedures in the AIM provides a safe harbor and use of
those
procedures is to be presumed by the FAA to be in compliance with all
federal
regulations.


May 19, 2000

Pelican's Perch #30:
The 45-Degree Zealots

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182100-1.html

Your basic premise is incorrect, and there is no data to back up such a
claim. In fact, it is impossible for all aircraft to fly the same pattern.


*****This is not correct. The safest traffic pattern entry is the one that
is
flown correctly and consistently by everyone.*******

Karl

"karl" wrote in message ...

*****This is not correct. The safest traffic pattern entry is the one that
is
flown correctly and consistently by everyone.*******

Didn't your mama ever say "If everybody jumped off the bridge, would you do so too?"

Just because everybody else is doing it, doesn't make it safe. The fact that they are
too lame to turn the pattern around to land upwind, or they patterns wide enough for
a 747 isn't compelling reason to follow along.

"Bill Denton" wrote:

This is not correct. The safest traffic pattern entry is the one that is
flown correctly and consistently by everyone.

Your evidence for this is? Putting all traffic on the exact
same altitude at exactly the same ground track ensures that
we're guaranteed a midair if I'm a mile from touchdown when
you're a mile from touchdown. I don't necessarily disagree
with you, but I'd like to see the evidence for your claim.

As I have previously stated, I believe this is not being interpreted
correctly. I believe that the purpose of this regulation is to define a
default traffic pattern direction. It basically states that "left traffic"
will be the standard, unless there are specific indications that one should
fly "right traffic".

Your belief is not regulatory - the FAR's are. If they
wanted to say what you believe they mean, they could have
written it your way.

From this, it would be a reasonable interpretation that the purpose of the
AIM is to provide a set of "best practices"; a method of performing
operations in a specific manner that will comply with regulations.

Reasonable. I might have stated it as: "... that will
comply with regulations as they are presently interpreted
and enforced."

This would indicate that the FAA's preferred method for pattern entry is a
45 degree entry with a right turn into "left traffic" or a left turn into
"right traffic".

Yep.

Again, let me note that I am a wannabe;

If you are a student or hope to become one, then ignore this
whole discussion and fly according to the AIM as closely as
you can. This discussion is by those who are either
frustrated or simply amused that the FAA's recommended
practices don't seem to be in compliance with the FAR's.
Eventually someone might push to change the FAR's or even
the 45 recommendation, but as a present or future student,
you should ignore this whole thread.

I am anxiously awaiting the
implementation of the Sport Pilot License. But via: my varied occupations, I
have extensive experience interpreting various rules, regulations, and
supplemental materials published both by various governments and private
industry. So, I feel quite confident of my interpretations. But if I am
demonstrably incorrect, please let me know...

The simplest demonstration is that the 45 turn to a left
pattern is a right turn, and the FAR's prohibit a right turn
when approaching to land. If you aren't approaching to land
when you make that turn, then you're right, but my gut tells
me you are. Q: When is a fish not a fish? A: When the FAA
says it's a cow. It's a curiosity that should guide no one.
There are lots of them in the FAR's. Fly the AIM for
instruction and flight tests and whenever it's safe.

Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

Cub Driver wrote:


Just a question - what is this 45 degree entry to downwind we keep
hearing about? I'm from the other side of the world and that's not
something I was taught - instead, like the guys from the UK, I do an
overhead join at an uncontrolled field,

It is part of the recommended approach in the U.S., and is so commonly
used that alternative entries are upsetting to many pilots.

It really doesn't matter how you approach an airport, but it sure
helps if everyone does it the same way.

Since I fly a high-wing airplane, however, I would prefer that people
not descend upon me while I'm in the pattern. As an alternative to the
45, I would choose a mid-field crossover to the downwind, but not if
there's a NORDO aircraft in the pattern. He's expecting traffic to
enter from his right, not his left.


OK, just another dumb question.. When you talk about people descending on
you in the circuit, I take it you mean they are descending while on
downwind? That sounds extremely unwise!!! I'm surprised that what we do
isn't also practised, or maybe it is but you call it something else... I
also can't bring myself to call it a pattern - sorry, I'm so used to
referring to it as a circuit, pattern sounds foreign to me :-)

Here's how we do it.... When we do an overhead join, we start 500 feet
above circuit altitude, and when ready, descend on the non-traffic side,
i.e. the upwind side - the other side of the circuit from downwind, then
when we're down to circuit altitude, we turn and fly the crosswind leg,
then, while looking for traffic we turn downwind and fly the rest
normally... I trust this doesn't come under the category of descending on
you?

No doubt this is normal, but called something else...

See ya

Chris