How do you get passengers over the fear of flying?

So, Kevin, what are you doing hanging around an aviation group?


"Kevin Hill" wrote in message
news:f_hNb.17218$XD5.15970@fed1read06...
Let's put it this way.

A pilot flying a commercial jet or airplane is at his job. Not that that
is
a guarantee or anything. He's also responsible for all his passengers,
and
will loose his job and livelyhood should he do something stupid. As
several
pilots have done, who reported for work drunk.

A professional airline usually has many people involved in the operation
of
a flight, and any one of those people can pull the plug on the pilot or
the
flight should they be doing something stupid, like drinking, or perhaps
trying to take off with a few nuts and bolts loose. The theory being that
the chances that multiple eyeballs will see a problem is higher. And
maintenance crews and staff are dedicated to keeping the planes flying.

A professional pilot also probably has lots more hours under his belt
stepping into the jets cockpit than many private pilots. And, has
experienced his share of issues, problems and perhaps emergencies. That
experience means something.

As to your remarks about who designed these planes. Glad they had
supervising engineers looking over their shoulders, and glad they had
engineers working under them to cover their mistakes when they were too
hung
over to do their jobs.

Point being - one person can make a mistake and not recover from it. Many
people can work on a project, and every person gets a chance to catch a
mistake prior to it getting loose. Not that it's perfect. Just better.

Finally - not knocking pilots. Just saying that I'd have a tough time
getting into a plane with them and literally trusting my life to them.
Particularly when their flight experience may be measured in tens our
hundreds of hours. Flying may still have lots of lessons to teach them.




"Nomen Nescio" ] wrote in
message
...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

From: "Kevin Hill"

As a non pilot - I would NOT get into a private (cessna type, mooney
type)
plane with ANYONE I currently know. At least when I fly commercial, I
know
that they have at least had some kind of professional training (I
hope)!

Then I'm sure you'll be thrilled to hear that some of the engineers that
designed those
airliners, and their engines, were classmates of mine 25 years ago. Some
of whom
I helped carry back to their dorm while they were puking their guts out
after overindulging
at the weekend kegger because they were so tripped out on LSD that they
didn't
know how much they were drinking. Think about that next time you get on
an
airliner!

As for the "professional training", do you think we were taught to fly
by
amateurs? Or
just spent enough time with MS Flight Simulator that we decided to get
in
a REAL plane?
BTW, I'm willing to bet that most private pilots could safely handle and
land any airliner that's
flying today. Should the need arise.



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"C J Campbell" wrote:

It would be more accurate to say that there is one fatal accident (as
opposed to fatality) every 76,000 hours of flying. That would be one fatal
accident every 760 years for people flying 100 hours per year. However, most
people fly much less than 100 hours per year. They also do not have long
flying careers. Most people fly for less than 20 years of their adult life.

And if you eliminate the obvious Darwinism fatalities it is even
safer. Just like automobile accidents. Don't do the things that kill
most people and it is safer than raw stats would suggest.

Ron Lee

"Frederick Wilson" wrote in message
news:5leNb.51713$nt4.83737@attbi_s51

Believe it or not most
folks do a preflight on their car before every drive. They just don't
know it. Once you point it out to folks that they look at the tires
on the walk up and how dirty the windows are...

Hi, Frederick. I'd like to introduce my wife...

The only "preflight" done on her vehicle before she turns the key is the one
performed by the onboard computer.

I, on the other hand, know exactly where you're coming from.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

Enjoying the talk and listening to you guys swap stories. Good stuff!

Honestly - I do quite a bit of "sim" flying - and seeing how things go in
the real world is kinda sobering. And - I didn't say that I wouldn't fly
myself somewhere, or take passengers myself if I was a private pilot. Just
that I don't know anyone right now that i'd fly with.

Kevin


"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
et...
So, Kevin, what are you doing hanging around an aviation group?


"Kevin Hill" wrote in message
news:f_hNb.17218$XD5.15970@fed1read06...
Let's put it this way.

A pilot flying a commercial jet or airplane is at his job. Not that
that
is
a guarantee or anything. He's also responsible for all his passengers,
and
will loose his job and livelyhood should he do something stupid. As
several
pilots have done, who reported for work drunk.

A professional airline usually has many people involved in the operation
of
a flight, and any one of those people can pull the plug on the pilot or
the
flight should they be doing something stupid, like drinking, or perhaps
trying to take off with a few nuts and bolts loose. The theory being
that
the chances that multiple eyeballs will see a problem is higher. And
maintenance crews and staff are dedicated to keeping the planes flying.

A professional pilot also probably has lots more hours under his belt
stepping into the jets cockpit than many private pilots. And, has
experienced his share of issues, problems and perhaps emergencies. That
experience means something.

As to your remarks about who designed these planes. Glad they had
supervising engineers looking over their shoulders, and glad they had
engineers working under them to cover their mistakes when they were too
hung
over to do their jobs.

Point being - one person can make a mistake and not recover from it.
Many
people can work on a project, and every person gets a chance to catch a
mistake prior to it getting loose. Not that it's perfect. Just better.

Finally - not knocking pilots. Just saying that I'd have a tough time
getting into a plane with them and literally trusting my life to them.
Particularly when their flight experience may be measured in tens our
hundreds of hours. Flying may still have lots of lessons to teach them.




"Nomen Nescio" ] wrote in
message
...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

From: "Kevin Hill"

As a non pilot - I would NOT get into a private (cessna type, mooney
type)
plane with ANYONE I currently know. At least when I fly commercial,
I
know
that they have at least had some kind of professional training (I
hope)!

Then I'm sure you'll be thrilled to hear that some of the engineers
that
designed those
airliners, and their engines, were classmates of mine 25 years ago.
Some
of whom
I helped carry back to their dorm while they were puking their guts
out
after overindulging
at the weekend kegger because they were so tripped out on LSD that
they
didn't
know how much they were drinking. Think about that next time you get
on
an
airliner!

As for the "professional training", do you think we were taught to fly
by
amateurs? Or
just spent enough time with MS Flight Simulator that we decided to get
in
a REAL plane?
BTW, I'm willing to bet that most private pilots could safely handle
and
land any airliner that's
flying today. Should the need arise.



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"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:WSaNb.49062$sv6.126431@attbi_s52...
|
| It's important to realize that your fearful friends may be right.
| Recreational flying is more dangerous than any activity that most
Americans
| engage in (unless we count dietary and exercise habits as an
"activity").
| According to AOPA's Air Safety Foundation's 2002 Nall Report
| (http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/02nall.pdf), personal
(non-business)
| GA flying has an average rate of one fatality per 56,000 hours of
flying.
| At that rate, among people who do 100 hours per year of personal flying,
| about 1 in 20 are killed within 25 years. To put that in perspective,
for
| 40-year-olds with a life expectancy of 80 years, 6.3 hours of life are
lost
| for every hour flown. For 10-year-olds with the same life expectancy,
11
| hours of life are lost for every hour flown.
|

Wanna check your math, there, Gary? And maybe you could mine the data for
a
little more interesting information. You do come up with good stuff.

It would be more accurate to say that there is one fatal accident (as
opposed to fatality) every 76,000 hours of flying. That would be one fatal
accident every 760 years for people flying 100 hours per year.

According to p. 1 of the Nall Report, there are 1.22 fatal accidents per
100,000 GA hours. That's one every 82,000 hours. According to p. 5,
personal flying accounts for 48.1% of GA hours, but 70.8% of GA flying.
That comes to one fatal accident per 56,000 hours of personal flying.
That's every 560 years at 100 hours per year, or every 28 years among 20
pilots who fly 100 hours per year each. So as I said, it's roughly 1 in 20
within 25 years.

You're right though that I was conflating fatal accidents with fatalities.
So the probability in question is the risk that *someone* will die in the
plane you're piloting--not necessarily you.

--Gary

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
"C J Campbell" wrote:

It would be more accurate to say that there is one fatal accident (as
opposed to fatality) every 76,000 hours of flying. That would be one
fatal
accident every 760 years for people flying 100 hours per year. However,
most
people fly much less than 100 hours per year. They also do not have long
flying careers. Most people fly for less than 20 years of their adult
life.

And if you eliminate the obvious Darwinism fatalities it is even
safer. Just like automobile accidents. Don't do the things that kill
most people and it is safer than raw stats would suggest.

Not necessarily. You're right that the statistics reflect an unknown number
of dumb decisions that you and I might never make. But they also reflect an
unknown number of instances where a pilot escaped harm by exercising better
skill or judgment than you or I possess. We don't know which factor
predominates, so we don't know if our personal risk is greater or less than
what the raw stats show.

--Gary


Ron Lee

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
newsLvNb.57987$Rc4.212328@attbi_s54...
personal flying accounts for 48.1% of GA hours, but 70.8% of GA flying.

Oops, that should say "but 70.8% of GA fatal accidents".

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
newsLvNb.57987$Rc4.212328@attbi_s54...

| According to p. 1 of the Nall Report, there are 1.22 fatal accidents per
| 100,000 GA hours. That's one every 82,000 hours. According to p. 5,
| personal flying accounts for 48.1% of GA hours, but 70.8% of GA flying.
| That comes to one fatal accident per 56,000 hours of personal flying.
| That's every 560 years at 100 hours per year, or every 28 years among 20
| pilots who fly 100 hours per year each. So as I said, it's roughly 1 in
20
| within 25 years.
|

Twenty years ago personal flying was roughly twice as dangerous as it is
now. Seems a lot of the stupid ones killed themselves. Makes you wonder if
we are going to get a an upsurge in accidents now that so many people are
learning to fly again.

Nall is not the only source on aviation safety. Other reports have broken
the accident rate down by type of aircraft. The Cessna 152 and 172 have much
lower accident rates than average, for example. Some models approach the
safety record of airliners, but they tend to be flown only by professional
pilots.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
It would be interesting to know whether accidents cluster around those who
don't fly very often (less than 50 hours per year) or those who fly a lot
or
even professionally.

I notice many fatal accidents in the NTSB database note that the pilot was
not current...perhaps more than half (sorry...I've not run empirical
analysis). OTOH, there seems to be a lot of pilots with thousands of hours.
Overconfidence of experience?

Wow, I asked a short question and this thread has blown into dozens
of postings. I'm glad I'm not the only who was interested
in talking about this.

Also I would like to thank everyone for your thoughts.
I guess most of my friends will never go flying but that
is their choice.


Gary wrote:
According to p. 1 of the Nall Report, there are 1.22 fatal accidents per
100,000 GA hours. That's one every 82,000 hours. According to p. 5,
personal flying accounts for 48.1% of GA hours, but 70.8% of GA flying.
That comes to one fatal accident per 56,000 hours of personal flying.
That's every 560 years at 100 hours per year, or every 28 years among 20
pilots who fly 100 hours per year each. So as I said, it's roughly 1 in 20
within 25 years.

Is it me or do others
find all these stats just completely useless after a while since it
appears that if you add all the percentages up it comes out to
14,284% (Gary I'm not pointing this next comment you *at all*)
I'm starting to believe the old saying, "Statistics don't
lie. The people who use statistics lie." Gary's example is
pretty clear cut but most of these reports are quite
comfusing. (NOTE: I took 9 semesters of math above Calculus I
so my math is not exactly lacking)

Gerald