Pilot, possibly intoxicated, flies around Philly for 3 hours

In article om,
"John T" wrote:

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message


The bottom line is that if the small
fields don't get a grip on REASONABLE security, one of these days
something bad is going to hb_men and there is going to be UNREASONABLE
over-reaction.

Can you define "reasonable security" for us?

Reasonable security would include airport ID badges for those who have a
reason to be on the field, perimeter fencing that is tall enough and
sealed well enough to be a deterrent, gates that work, and some type of
continuous airport surveillence. Those are common sense things that, in
most cases, are SUPPOSED to be done anyway at most of these airports,
and actually serve to protect the aircraft owners based at the field
from theft and vandalism (it's happened around here). My home field has
perimeter fencing on only 3 sides and most of the fencing isn't much
more than waist high. Despite that, they put in gates with key-codes
that have been installed for quite a while but have never been
activated. "Reasonable" means that if you're supposed to be on the
field and can prove it then you won't be hassled. "Unreasonable" is
when they start forcing you to go through the "secure" terminal and have
to ride you to your airplane or hangar in an airport vehicle, watch you
extract your airplane and lock the hangar, and depart... and I'm sure
that wouldn't be the worst of it. Bottom line is that if something bad
happens and some news crew goes out to the local airport and finds
missing fence and gates that are wide open, the situation is going to
get overblown.

Oh, yeah, and enforce the terms of the lease that exists, in most cases,
for those who are using an airplane hangar as a U-Store by throwing them
out. One guy around here was actually bold enough to routinely drive an
18 wheeler through the gate, down the taxiways, and up to his T-hangar
so that he could load and unload things. None of those things were ever
aviation-related as far as I could tell, and if he ever had an airplane
in the hangar it certainly wasn't visible to the naked eye.



JKG

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message
...
In article om,
"John T" wrote:

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message


The bottom line is that if the small
fields don't get a grip on REASONABLE security, one of these days
something bad is going to hb_men and there is going to be UNREASONABLE
over-reaction.

Can you define "reasonable security" for us?

Reasonable security would include airport ID badges for those who have a
reason to be on the field, perimeter fencing that is tall enough and
sealed well enough to be a deterrent, gates that work, and some type of
continuous airport surveillence. Those are common sense things that, in
most cases, are SUPPOSED to be done anyway at most of these airports,
and actually serve to protect the aircraft owners based at the field
from theft and vandalism (it's happened around here). My home field has
perimeter fencing on only 3 sides and most of the fencing isn't much
more than waist high. Despite that, they put in gates with key-codes
that have been installed for quite a while but have never been
activated. "Reasonable" means that if you're supposed to be on the
field and can prove it then you won't be hassled.

Your reasonable is totally UNreasonable in my book. For what reason are you
creating a prison like facility? What actual problems are you trying to
solve? I don't need an ID badge to drive my car why should I need one to
fly my plane? My garage does not have continuous surveillence why should
airports? I don't have a fence around my garage why should GA airports?
Can you provide a reference to support your statement that what you suggest
is SUPPOSED to be done at airports?

In article ,
"Dave Stadt" wrote:
Your reasonable is totally UNreasonable in my book. For what reason are you
creating a prison like facility? What actual problems are you trying to
solve? I don't need an ID badge to drive my car why should I need one to
fly my plane? My garage does not have continuous surveillence why should
airports? I don't have a fence around my garage why should GA airports?
Can you provide a reference to support your statement that what you suggest
is SUPPOSED to be done at airports?


I am not creating a "prison like" facility; quite the contrary, I am
suggesting common sense measures to PREVENT the creation of a "prison
like" facility.

Fact is, you do need an ID badge to drive your car, it's called a
driver's license. How you secure your garage is your problem, but I
suspect that you keep your garage locked and when you're not home
neither is your car. I don't live at the airport, so most of the time
my plane is unattended.

What I'm hearing from you detractors is that you don't believe there
should be ANY security at GA fields beyond, perhaps, local recognition
on those CAVU days. How are you going to prove to law enforcement that
you are supposed to be on the field if there is a problem? How are you
going to defend the airport that has no access control whatever if
someone should use the field as a lauching point for something
disasterous or stupid? I am curious.

Just as with securing your house, nothing you do is going to stop the
determined burglar. What you can do things to make execution of the
crime more difficult and time consuming while still retaining
unrestricted movement in your house. Maybe you can go to sleep at night
with the doors unlocked and the windows open and feel safe; if you can,
good for you. Honestly, I can't, and I don't live in a bad
neighborhood. If my neighbors and I all started leaving our doors
unlocked, though, pretty soon the criminals would find the easy target.



JKG

My GA airport is pretty remote . . . isolated with relatively sparse
surrounding population. We have a totally fenced perimiter (3 weeks ago, I
watched a 6-point buck trying frantically to get over it unsuccessfully)--with
an electronic gate (that can be opened by anyone with the code such as we
owners based there). When you press the code to open the gate, your vehicle is
digitally photographed. ALL areas of the field are under 24 hour digital
camera surveillance, the tie-down and hangar areas are well-lit, and all the
recorded data is stored on computer, date and time-stamped. Try anything at my
field and it's going to be recorded.
I have no problem with this and am glad the system is in place.
www.Rosspilot.com

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

Just as with securing your house, nothing you do is going to stop the
determined burglar. What you can do things to make execution of the
crime more difficult and time consuming while still retaining
unrestricted movement in your house.

Fine, but that doesn't give YOU or anyone else the right to force me to hire a
security outfit, put chainlink around my property, or do any of the other expensive
things you're proposing that I pay for at my airport.

Keep your cotton-pickin hands off my wallet.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Dave Stadt" wrote:
Your reasonable is totally UNreasonable in my book. For what reason are
you
creating a prison like facility? What actual problems are you trying to
solve? I don't need an ID badge to drive my car why should I need one
to
fly my plane? My garage does not have continuous surveillence why
should
airports? I don't have a fence around my garage why should GA airports?
Can you provide a reference to support your statement that what you
suggest
is SUPPOSED to be done at airports?


I am not creating a "prison like" facility; quite the contrary, I am
suggesting common sense measures to PREVENT the creation of a "prison
like" facility.

ID cards, gates and fences sure sound like a prison to me.

Fact is, you do need an ID badge to drive your car, it's called a
driver's license.

And I have one for flying called a pilots certificate. In fact we need to
forms of ID to fly, remember?

How you secure your garage is your problem, but I
suspect that you keep your garage locked and when you're not home
neither is your car. I don't live at the airport, so most of the time
my plane is unattended.

My plane is in a locked hangar. Sounds just like a locked garage to me. If
you can't afford a hangar don't expect everyone else to pay for your
imagined need to protect your property.

What I'm hearing from you detractors is that you don't believe there
should be ANY security at GA fields beyond, perhaps, local recognition
on those CAVU days. How are you going to prove to law enforcement that
you are supposed to be on the field if there is a problem?

The airport owners will verify that I belong at the airport. Much more
effective than an an ID card which can be counterfit in minutes. Besides
why does law enforcement care if I "belong" at the airport. Most airports
are public facilities. How would you deal with transients? I see
absolutely no history of these gremlins you seem to see around every corner.

How are you
going to defend the airport that has no access control whatever if
someone should use the field as a lauching point for something
disasterous or stupid? I am curious.

Same as any other mode of transportation facility does. You really are not
thinking clearly if you believe fences and ID cards can prevent such a thing
and besides, where is the history of "something disasterous or stupid" to
warrant the implementation of your suggestions.

Just as with securing your house, nothing you do is going to stop the
determined burglar. What you can do things to make execution of the
crime more difficult and time consuming while still retaining
unrestricted movement in your house. Maybe you can go to sleep at night
with the doors unlocked and the windows open and feel safe; if you can,
good for you. Honestly, I can't, and I don't live in a bad
neighborhood. If my neighbors and I all started leaving our doors
unlocked, though, pretty soon the criminals would find the easy target.

So lock your doors and put your plane in a locked hangar. Hate to be the
one that tells you but locks and closed windows only stop amateurs. Locks
don't slow the pros for more than a few seconds.

JKG

What do you propose for privately owned airfields on private property?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

"John T" wrote in message
ws.com...
What do you propose for privately owned airfields on private property?

What do people do for their garages (i.e., large trucks...).

Where do people park their 3/4 ton pickup trucks and large panel trucks?

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

What do people do for their garages (i.e., large trucks...).

Around here, they're typically parked in large open lots. A good example would
be the local UPS depot.

Where do people park their 3/4 ton pickup trucks and large panel trucks?

Well, my truck is only 1/4 ton, but it's in my driveway. The nearest U-haul outfit
is an open lot on route 35.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Jonathan Goodish wrote in message ...

Fact is, you do need an ID badge to drive your car, it's called a
driver's license.

Um...so, since I need a pilot's license to fly plus another
form of govm't issued photo ID --- you're actually arguing
that no further identification is necessary?

Jonathan, your analogies seem to need a little buffing-up.

What I'm hearing from you detractors is that you don't believe there
should be ANY security at GA fields

Really? Where are you hearing that?

What I'm hearing is that I, and apparently some others, don't
feel your suggested security measures are "reasonable".

It seems rather a cognitive leap to go from "they don't
think my ideas are reasonable" to "they don't believe
there should be ANY security at GA fields.

snip

Just as with securing your house, nothing you do is going to stop the
determined burglar. What you can do things to make execution of the
crime more difficult and time consuming while still retaining
unrestricted movement in your house.

I really think the "house" analogy for an airport is not quite
apt.

A public-use airport is not a house. It is a business, and
as such must provide access to everyone who needs to use it.
Charter customers, line boys, student pilots, flight instructors,
custodians, mechanics so forth and so on.

Therein lies the weakest point of any security system for a public-
use facility. It's often not strangers breaking down the doors,
but people who've been granted access who commit illegal acts.

So exactly how much deterrent value does that fence and security
system provide, and how does that compare to its cost and the
effect that cost will have on small airports and the small businesses
trying to make a living there, if you try to enforce "one standard
to fit all"?

At some airports, security systems such as you describe seem
justified and reasonable. At others, why on earth?

Cheers,
Sydney