Pilot, possibly intoxicated, flies around Philly for 3 hours

In article ,
"Dave Stadt" wrote:
Your reasonable is totally UNreasonable in my book. For what reason are you
creating a prison like facility? What actual problems are you trying to
solve? I don't need an ID badge to drive my car why should I need one to
fly my plane? My garage does not have continuous surveillence why should
airports? I don't have a fence around my garage why should GA airports?
Can you provide a reference to support your statement that what you suggest
is SUPPOSED to be done at airports?


I am not creating a "prison like" facility; quite the contrary, I am
suggesting common sense measures to PREVENT the creation of a "prison
like" facility.

Fact is, you do need an ID badge to drive your car, it's called a
driver's license. How you secure your garage is your problem, but I
suspect that you keep your garage locked and when you're not home
neither is your car. I don't live at the airport, so most of the time
my plane is unattended.

What I'm hearing from you detractors is that you don't believe there
should be ANY security at GA fields beyond, perhaps, local recognition
on those CAVU days. How are you going to prove to law enforcement that
you are supposed to be on the field if there is a problem? How are you
going to defend the airport that has no access control whatever if
someone should use the field as a lauching point for something
disasterous or stupid? I am curious.

Just as with securing your house, nothing you do is going to stop the
determined burglar. What you can do things to make execution of the
crime more difficult and time consuming while still retaining
unrestricted movement in your house. Maybe you can go to sleep at night
with the doors unlocked and the windows open and feel safe; if you can,
good for you. Honestly, I can't, and I don't live in a bad
neighborhood. If my neighbors and I all started leaving our doors
unlocked, though, pretty soon the criminals would find the easy target.



JKG

My GA airport is pretty remote . . . isolated with relatively sparse
surrounding population. We have a totally fenced perimiter (3 weeks ago, I
watched a 6-point buck trying frantically to get over it unsuccessfully)--with
an electronic gate (that can be opened by anyone with the code such as we
owners based there). When you press the code to open the gate, your vehicle is
digitally photographed. ALL areas of the field are under 24 hour digital
camera surveillance, the tie-down and hangar areas are well-lit, and all the
recorded data is stored on computer, date and time-stamped. Try anything at my
field and it's going to be recorded.
I have no problem with this and am glad the system is in place.
www.Rosspilot.com

Jonathan Goodish wrote in news:jgoodish-
:

Having no security is unreasonable in my opinion. Most of us who own
airplanes paid a good chunk of money for them and I, for one, am not
rolling in money. Sure, the airplane is insured, but having no
deterrent security at an airport is like leaving my car unlocked with
the keys in the ignition.

Actually, leaving your plane unlocked with the keys in the ignition would
seem to me to be a more accurate equation.

More than one local airport in my area has
had vandalism and theft of aircraft and avionics. On more than one
occassion the airport locals recogized some folks whom they did not
recognize walking the airport and apparently mining people for
information. Despite the suspicions, what were folks supposed to do?
There was no crime committed so law enforcement wasn't interested.
Eventually stuff was stolen and the airport decided to hire a night
guard to patrol the field. and turn the gates back on to prevent
unauthorized vehicle traffic.

Well, maybe you have a local crime problem in your area. At my airport, FBO
owners, personnel, and pilots alike are pretty vigilant about who they let
roam around the airport. I have seen people approached and asked who they
were and what they were doing there. I have seen FBO owners question retail
staff about someone they did not recognize, even when that person was
buying merchandise. And I have seen FBO owners and even pilots call police
to report someone suspicious that required investigation. And the police
responded happily and promptly, even though no crime had been committed.

I also don't think that you can have one standard for larger airport and
another for smaller ones. For example, it's okay to have no security
beyond a padlock at Podunk Field, Midwest, but I doubt that you'd agree
that it would be okay to have no security at BOS or LGA or JFK.

I don't know that I agree completely. Some airparks (like one that recently
was featured on a CBS News special) are a runway surrounded by homes where
each home has a hangar and a taxiway. Would you propose to require people
to have card-keys to get into their homes? Do you think that is reasonable?

Eventually, the bad guys are going to figure out that there is no
security at Podunk Field and capitalize on that fact.

Exactly how? What do you think they will do?

More importantly, do you think if a determined "bad guy" wants to gain
access to your airport, a chain-link fence with the cardkey is going to
stop him?

I'm sorry, I just don't see what is so unreasonable about controlled
access to the field. I don't see what is so unreasonable about ID
badges. I don't see what is so unreasonable about surveillence.
Eventually the old guys are going to die off and a new generation who
doesn't spend all of their time at the airport is going to come along
and it will be more difficult to spot those who do not belong. If law
enforcement is to help secure these airports, they also need to know who
does or does not belong, and in most cases law enforcement isn't going
to be hanging out at the local airport all the time.

As with most security, it does a great job of making you feel good and
safe. And it may deter the "casual" vandal or thief. But like the locks on
your doors at home, if someone is intent on gaining access, it is just a
placebo and a waste of money.

No, no ROE that I've seen anywhere.


"David Reinhart" wrote in message
...
This is the first I've heard on any nuclear plants actually being equipped
with
SAMs. I wonder what unit it is and who is picking up the tab. Is there a
NOTAM
anywhere that deadly force could be employed against aircraft getting too
close,
or even a definition of what too close would be?

Dave Reinhart


Tom Sixkiller wrote:

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Tom Sixkiller wrote:

Is that the nuke plant in the upper left of the picture?

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KPTW

Yep.

Damn...Palo Verde has AA missiles on it's site now...and it's only 20
miles
from Luke AFB...with a load of F-16's. Of course, those F-16's are
scattered
all over the landscape....

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Dave Stadt" wrote:
Your reasonable is totally UNreasonable in my book. For what reason are
you
creating a prison like facility? What actual problems are you trying to
solve? I don't need an ID badge to drive my car why should I need one
to
fly my plane? My garage does not have continuous surveillence why
should
airports? I don't have a fence around my garage why should GA airports?
Can you provide a reference to support your statement that what you
suggest
is SUPPOSED to be done at airports?


I am not creating a "prison like" facility; quite the contrary, I am
suggesting common sense measures to PREVENT the creation of a "prison
like" facility.

ID cards, gates and fences sure sound like a prison to me.

Fact is, you do need an ID badge to drive your car, it's called a
driver's license.

And I have one for flying called a pilots certificate. In fact we need to
forms of ID to fly, remember?

How you secure your garage is your problem, but I
suspect that you keep your garage locked and when you're not home
neither is your car. I don't live at the airport, so most of the time
my plane is unattended.

My plane is in a locked hangar. Sounds just like a locked garage to me. If
you can't afford a hangar don't expect everyone else to pay for your
imagined need to protect your property.

What I'm hearing from you detractors is that you don't believe there
should be ANY security at GA fields beyond, perhaps, local recognition
on those CAVU days. How are you going to prove to law enforcement that
you are supposed to be on the field if there is a problem?

The airport owners will verify that I belong at the airport. Much more
effective than an an ID card which can be counterfit in minutes. Besides
why does law enforcement care if I "belong" at the airport. Most airports
are public facilities. How would you deal with transients? I see
absolutely no history of these gremlins you seem to see around every corner.

How are you
going to defend the airport that has no access control whatever if
someone should use the field as a lauching point for something
disasterous or stupid? I am curious.

Same as any other mode of transportation facility does. You really are not
thinking clearly if you believe fences and ID cards can prevent such a thing
and besides, where is the history of "something disasterous or stupid" to
warrant the implementation of your suggestions.

Just as with securing your house, nothing you do is going to stop the
determined burglar. What you can do things to make execution of the
crime more difficult and time consuming while still retaining
unrestricted movement in your house. Maybe you can go to sleep at night
with the doors unlocked and the windows open and feel safe; if you can,
good for you. Honestly, I can't, and I don't live in a bad
neighborhood. If my neighbors and I all started leaving our doors
unlocked, though, pretty soon the criminals would find the easy target.

So lock your doors and put your plane in a locked hangar. Hate to be the
one that tells you but locks and closed windows only stop amateurs. Locks
don't slow the pros for more than a few seconds.

JKG

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

Just as with securing your house, nothing you do is going to stop the
determined burglar. What you can do things to make execution of the
crime more difficult and time consuming while still retaining
unrestricted movement in your house.

Fine, but that doesn't give YOU or anyone else the right to force me to hire a
security outfit, put chainlink around my property, or do any of the other expensive
things you're proposing that I pay for at my airport.

Keep your cotton-pickin hands off my wallet.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

Quite the contrary, my suggestions are quite reasonable, not expensive
(except for the surveillence), and far from useless.

Then you haven't priced any of them lately. Fencing alone could run 100 grand at
a small airport.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Jonathan Goodish wrote:

Quite the contrary, my suggestions are quite reasonable, not expensive
(except for the surveillence), and far from useless.

Then you haven't priced any of them lately. Fencing alone could run 100
grand at
a small airport.


And it's only a deterrent; not a failsafe system.

What do you propose for privately owned airfields on private property?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

Jonathan Goodish wrote in message ...
In article ,
"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

A whole bunch of things that are wildly UNreasonable, expensive, and useless.

How so? I guess my experience with theft and vandalism at local fields
must have been my imagination.

Jonathan,

No one is saying your local fields don't have a problem with
theft and vandalism. If so, then maybe you and the other local
pilots need to get together with airport management and implement
changes that will solve the problem.

If you feel a six foot tall fence, security gates, airport IDs,
and surveillance cameras will solve the problem, I suggest you
and a group of fellow pilots who feel that way should get together
and demand them. Find out what it would take.

Quite the contrary, my suggestions are quite reasonable, not expensive

With all respect, your definitions of "quite reasonable"
and "not expensive" seem to differ from the standard.

Just what do you think the yearly operating budget of a small
rural airport is?

Just how much do you think 2 miles of 6" tall top-and-bottom bar
chain link, an automatic gate, and credentialling 100 pilots
actually costs?

If you don't agree then I expect you to suggest alternatives
for securing these fields.

My suggestion is that there is no need to secure "these fields".

My suggestion is that as a society, we react and implement sensible
measures proportionate to a realistic assessment of risk.

I don't think it's rational to suggest that all airports pose the
same security risk. A light single or twin does not carry the
same payload nor have the same range as a corporate jet. A corporate
jet does not carry the same payload or have the same range as a
commercial aircraft. The 9/11 terrorists didn't choose commercial
jets because little Cessnas could do the job just as well.

I don't think it's rational to suggest that we should go around
fencing in every GA airport while anyone with a driver's license and
a major credit card can rent a rather large truck and drive it anywhere
in a major city with no background check or limitations, while and
while many sites critical to our modern infrastructure have minimal
security -- nothing that a truck modified by a couple hours of
welding couldn't penetrate.

If it's escaped you that while our national security gurus blather
about terrorist 'fixation on possible uses of airplanes', the terrorists
have repeatedly demonstrated actual USE of car and truck bombs, it
hasn't escaped others including me.

I think we are way overdue for rational risk assessment and reaction
in accord with that risk assessment -- instead of 'blowing snow'
security measures which appear motivated by the size of the constituent
groups likely to be inconvenienced.

Sydney