Your very own suspected terrorist

The bank sent me a past due notice for the difference, which I paid the
next
day. It took 8 months to get the excess back from the IRS.

Well, Don, I can top that. As some of you know, as an employer, I must pay
employee withholding (Medicare/Medicaid and Federal) tax, known as "941
Tax."

The form you use to pay this monthly tax is the identical form you use to
pay FUTA (Federal Unemployment) tax, also known as "940 Tax.".

Both types of tax are paid at your bank -- NOT to the IRS -- using the same
form.

When I was pretty new to this whole charade, in my first business (back in
the late '80s), I accidentally checked the "940" box instead of the "941"
box. No one said anything at the bank, and I, of course, didn't notice....

....until I got a very stern warning letter from the IRS, stating that they
were going to repossess everything in my universe if I didn't pay the
employee's withholding tax, pronto!

Needless to say, I was dumb-founded, as I *knew* I had paid the tax. It
was only after checking the IRS's records that we discovered a HUGE "credit"
in our unemployment tax account, and an identical "shortfall" in our
"employee withholding" account. Duh.

Now, mind you, this is the same IRS, no matter how you slice the pie. All
they had to do to fix the problem was make a note of the error, and move
"Dollar A" from "Account 1" to "Account 2." Simple, right? Any first year
accounting student could fix this, right?

NOT. It took six MONTHS to get corrected... :-(

I finally had to speak with "Mabel," an elderly black woman in Kansas City
(probably the ONLY person in the IRS who knows how to actually do anything),
who was able to fix the problem in the blink of an eye. (I suspect our
entire government is run this way -- there's probably one or two old black
women in an office somewhere, patiently fixing all the stupid bureaucratic
errors that everyone racks up...)

And don't even get me STARTED on Iowa's famously mis-named "Workforce
Development" unemployment agency... :-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article DcDQb.144901$na.231057@attbi_s04, Jay Honeck wrote:
NOT. It took six MONTHS to get corrected... :-(

I was quite impressed with our government after inadvertently overpaying
my tax. They sent me a refund within a week, and I didn't even have to
ask.

On the other hand, there's only about 50K taxpayers here as opposed to
however many hundred million you have.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article DcDQb.144901$na.231057@attbi_s04, "Jay Honeck"
writes:


The bank sent me a past due notice for the difference, which I paid the
next
day. It took 8 months to get the excess back from the IRS.

Well, Don, I can top that. As some of you know, as an employer, I must pay
employee withholding (Medicare/Medicaid and Federal) tax, known as "941
Tax."


Ever wonder why we have all this silliness of 940's & 941's & W2's and
Rainforests in Iowa? It really shouldn't be a surprise, any system of taxation
and spending based on a complex deception should be expected to have goofy
results and applications.

Anyone smart enough to fill out a flight plan has already figured out that
taxes on corporations are really taxes on the consumers of whatever that
corporation sells. But the same thing is really true of payroll taxes on
individuals as well.

See http://lpva.com/main/Archives/Editor...r/20040106.htm

But, this thread gives me the opportunity to invite you and our flying friends
to a rally we will be hosting here in Virginia for the FairTax (
www.fairtax.org ) on the morning of Saturday, May 1st, in hopes of changing
that.

No one would be in favor of the federal government building a rainforest in
Iowa unless they believed someone else was paying for it. But more than half
the voters in the country are under the illusion that anything that comes from
the government is "free" to them because they pay little, if any income tax.
The reality is that we all pay for these silly expenditures. On average, 22% of
the price of everything you buy, from bread to brain surgery, is really someone
else's Federal income and FICA taxes, concealed in the cost of those goods and
services. Depending on where you live, state and local taxation bring that
share of costs of goods and services to between 40% and 48%, all in an
invisible sales tax that hardly anyone is aware they are paying. The FairTax
would change all that, eliminating all payroll taxes, the IRS, the 16th
Amendment and replacing them with an honest, visible retail sales tax.

This would be cost and revenue neutral, as prices would fall and paychecks
(since no income or FICA taxes would be withheld) would rise just enough to
cover the sales tax. So, why do it? The answer is CLARITY. Everyone would know
what government really costs them. It would be printed on every invoice,
receipt and sales slip. For the first time in our lifetimes, everyone, rich and
poor alike, would know how the burden of taxation falls on all of us. Imagine
trying to sell the idea of an Iowa rainforest to a working mother when she
learns that SHE is paying for it(and has been paying for dumb stuff like that
all along), and not just some rich guy or evil corporation.

This measure could indeed change everything, but it faces an uphill battle. The
major politcal parties have no interest in it. The Democrat Party exists to
soak the rich. The Republican Party exists to protect the successful from the
Democrats. Both Democrats and Republicans are in no hurry to have the people
learn that all these years, they have really been soaking everybody, and their
battles have been nothing more than a farce, fought over an illusion. So, if
this is to happen, it will have to be demanded by the grass roots, and that
means those who lead in their community and in business. And, many of those
folks are right here.

So, I am inviting you to attend the May 1st rally here in Chesapeake, VA, which
will be the kickoff of the national campaign to move HR 25, the FairTax bill
forward in Congress. We will provide transportation from CPK and ORF to low
cost hotels near the Chesapeake Conference Center on the Friday before the
rally and back to the airports afterward. I hope many of you here will attend
and become part of this movement to fix what is wrong in this country.

If you are interested in participating, Email me at for more
information and updates as the event gets closer.

Don







--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

Wdtabor opined

In article DcDQb.144901$na.231057@attbi_s04, "Jay Honeck"
writes:


The bank sent me a past due notice for the difference, which I paid the
next
day. It took 8 months to get the excess back from the IRS.

Well, Don, I can top that. As some of you know, as an employer, I must pay
employee withholding (Medicare/Medicaid and Federal) tax, known as "941
Tax."


Ever wonder why we have all this silliness of 940's & 941's & W2's and
Rainforests in Iowa? It really shouldn't be a surprise, any system of
taxation and spending based on a complex deception should be expected to have
goofy results and applications.

Anyone smart enough to fill out a flight plan has already figured out that
taxes on corporations are really taxes on the consumers of whatever that
corporation sells. But the same thing is really true of payroll taxes on
individuals as well.

Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are employees,
customers or owners. But it is not corporations.

See http://lpva.com/main/Archives/Editor...r/20040106.htm


-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Wdtabor opined

Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
employees,
customers or owners. But it is not corporations.

Actually, it's quite clear:

Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
pay for goods and services.

As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
FICA.

--
"He that would make his own liberty secure,
must guard even his enemy from oppression;
for if he violates this duty, he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine

In article , "Tom Sixkiller"
writes:


Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
employees,
customers or owners. But it is not corporations.

Actually, it's quite clear:

Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
pay for goods and services.

As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
FICA.

Didn't read the link I sent, did you?

http://lpva.com/main/Archives/Editor...r/20040106.htm


In effect, as individiuals, we act as corporations selling our labor, and our
taxes are also passed on to our employers, as a cost of doing business, and
then to the customers. The burden of ALL taxation falls ultimately on the
consumer.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

Tom Sixkiller opined

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Wdtabor opined

Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
employees,
customers or owners. But it is not corporations.


I forgot suppliers.

Actually, it's quite clear:

Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
pay for goods and services.

Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
current list price for its cars. Getting people to pay more would be
difficult.

As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
FICA.

Taxes are usually paid by the owners in lower dividends or capital gains. But
if the employment market is weak it is paid by employees. Strong unions can
put pressure on non-union suppliers.

If there is no competition for the product customers pay the tax.

In all cases though, it is individuals who pay the tax, not companies. But
which set of individuals varies from company to company and time to time.

So it is not clear who pays corporate taxes.



-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

In article , "Ash Wyllie" writes:


Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
pay for goods and services.

Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
current list price for its cars. Getting people to pay more would be
difficult.


That is a misconception about the relationship between supply and demand. We
all understand the demand side in the control of prices, but cost provides a
floor for supply. If it costs a manufacturer $12K to build a car, other than
for very grief periods, the supply of $11K cars will be zero. Making cars to
selll for less than cost, absent a government subsidy, is pointless. In fact,
making a car for less than cost PLUS a real profit less than available from
other investments is pretty much pointless. So, low demand, in the long run,
cannot drive the price down below a floor of cost plus a reasonable profit.

If something happens to raise cost for one manufacturer only, like a class
action suit or major recall, then that manufacturer suffers a competitive
disadvantage since he cannot pass that along to customers beyond the limits of
brand loyalty. But if something happens that raises the cost equally for ALL
manufacturers, like a rise in the cost of steel or a tax increase, that raises
the cost floor, and prices, regardless of demand.

All manufacturers are subject to the cost of corporate taxes, and the taxes
paid by their employees, and the taxes of their suppliers. All these taxes
contribute to the floor cost of producing goods and services below which low
demand cannot drive the price.

This is just as true for personal taxes. If the government were to impose a 20%
surtax on dentists incomes whose last names were in the first half of the
alphabet, I (Tabor) would be able to live well doing fillings at a price below
that which those dentists could get by on. But if you applied that surtax to
the incomes of all dentists, you're going to pay more for fillings, as we would
all raise prices to maintian our standard of living, otherwise why be a dentist
instead of a CFI?

Now apply that principle to everyone else who is not a dentist, but who sells
their labor to someone else, either directly or through an employer. Raise
income taxes on anyone, and all prices, for everything they contribute to
providing, go up. It is unavoidable. Income based taxes, either corporate or
personal, inevitably result in higher prices as they are passed on to the
consumer. Owners of businesses may serve as temporary buffers for tax
increases, but only briefly, or business comes to a halt. In the end, ALL
income based taxes actually impact our lives as a hidden sales tax paid by end
consumers, and those who appear to pay the income taxes are really only tax
collectors of this totally regressive, hidden sales tax.

Once the general public realizes that, class warfare over taxation becomes
pointless. Raising taxes on the baker effects everyone who eats bread. That is
the point of the FairTax (www.FairTax.org) effort, to bring that clarity to the
political process.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

Wdtabor opined

In article , "Ash Wyllie"
writes:


Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price
they pay for goods and services.

Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
current list price for its cars. Getting people to pay more would be
difficult.


That is a misconception about the relationship between supply and demand. We
all understand the demand side in the control of prices, but cost provides a
floor for supply. If it costs a manufacturer $12K to build a car, other than
for very grief periods, the supply of $11K cars will be zero. Making cars to
selll for less than cost, absent a government subsidy, is pointless. In fact,
making a car for less than cost PLUS a real profit less than available from
other investments is pretty much pointless. So, low demand, in the long run,
cannot drive the price down below a floor of cost plus a reasonable profit.

I don't disagree with you, except for one thing: Japanese, Korean and European
manufacturers are not subject to all the taxes that US manufacturers are. So
it is not always possible to pass additional taxes along to car buyers. So
employees and owners pay the tax.

If something happens to raise cost for one manufacturer only, like a class
action suit or major recall, then that manufacturer suffers a competitive
disadvantage since he cannot pass that along to customers beyond the limits
of brand loyalty. But if something happens that raises the cost equally for
ALL manufacturers, like a rise in the cost of steel or a tax increase, that
raises the cost floor, and prices, regardless of demand.

All manufacturers are subject to the cost of corporate taxes, and the taxes
paid by their employees, and the taxes of their suppliers. All these taxes
contribute to the floor cost of producing goods and services below which low
demand cannot drive the price.

This is just as true for personal taxes. If the government were to impose a
20% surtax on dentists incomes whose last names were in the first half of the
alphabet, I (Tabor) would be able to live well doing fillings at a price
below that which those dentists could get by on. But if you applied that
surtax to the incomes of all dentists, you're going to pay more for fillings,
as we would all raise prices to maintian our standard of living, otherwise
why be a dentist instead of a CFI?

Now apply that principle to everyone else who is not a dentist, but who sells
their labor to someone else, either directly or through an employer. Raise
income taxes on anyone, and all prices, for everything they contribute to
providing, go up. It is unavoidable. Income based taxes, either corporate or
personal, inevitably result in higher prices as they are passed on to the
consumer. Owners of businesses may serve as temporary buffers for tax
increases, but only briefly, or business comes to a halt. In the end, ALL
income based taxes actually impact our lives as a hidden sales tax paid by
end consumers, and those who appear to pay the income taxes are really only
tax collectors of this totally regressive, hidden sales tax.

Once the general public realizes that, class warfare over taxation becomes
pointless. Raising taxes on the baker effects everyone who eats bread. That
is the point of the FairTax (www.FairTax.org) effort, to bring that clarity
to the political process.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG


-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Tom Sixkiller opined

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Wdtabor opined

Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
employees,
customers or owners. But it is not corporations.


I forgot suppliers.

Same thing.


Actually, it's quite clear:

Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price
they
pay for goods and services.

Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
current list price for its cars.

That's a dealer issue, GM is still making a tidy sum on each vehicle
(regardless of what BS they post in the ads).


Getting people to pay more would be
difficult.

Hasn't stopped them in the past. Look at how much they spend for any form of
entertainment. People said they wouldn't go to the movies when the price hit
$4, $5, $8...but each year they set reconds as the price is not $8 and even
$10-12.



As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
FICA.

Taxes are usually paid by the owners in lower dividends or capital gains.
But
if the employment market is weak it is paid by employees. Strong unions
can
put pressure on non-union suppliers.

And thus depress wages further.


If there is no competition for the product customers pay the tax.

What product would that be? IAC, customers ALWAYS pay the tax; the money a
company has doesn't materialize out of thin air.


In all cases though, it is individuals who pay the tax, not companies. But
which set of individuals varies from company to company and time to time.

It's either customers in the form of higer prices, or employees in the for
of employers portion of FICA.


So it is not clear who pays corporate taxes.

Outside employment taxes, it's always the customer. No one else can pay the
taxes because no one else provides revenue for the company.