Your very own suspected terrorist

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Wdtabor opined

Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
employees,
customers or owners. But it is not corporations.

Actually, it's quite clear:

Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
pay for goods and services.

As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
FICA.

--
"He that would make his own liberty secure,
must guard even his enemy from oppression;
for if he violates this duty, he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine

In article , "Tom Sixkiller"
writes:


Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
employees,
customers or owners. But it is not corporations.

Actually, it's quite clear:

Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
pay for goods and services.

As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
FICA.

Didn't read the link I sent, did you?

http://lpva.com/main/Archives/Editor...r/20040106.htm


In effect, as individiuals, we act as corporations selling our labor, and our
taxes are also passed on to our employers, as a cost of doing business, and
then to the customers. The burden of ALL taxation falls ultimately on the
consumer.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

Tom Sixkiller opined

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Wdtabor opined

Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
employees,
customers or owners. But it is not corporations.


I forgot suppliers.

Actually, it's quite clear:

Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
pay for goods and services.

Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
current list price for its cars. Getting people to pay more would be
difficult.

As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
FICA.

Taxes are usually paid by the owners in lower dividends or capital gains. But
if the employment market is weak it is paid by employees. Strong unions can
put pressure on non-union suppliers.

If there is no competition for the product customers pay the tax.

In all cases though, it is individuals who pay the tax, not companies. But
which set of individuals varies from company to company and time to time.

So it is not clear who pays corporate taxes.



-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

In article , "Ash Wyllie" writes:


Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
pay for goods and services.

Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
current list price for its cars. Getting people to pay more would be
difficult.


That is a misconception about the relationship between supply and demand. We
all understand the demand side in the control of prices, but cost provides a
floor for supply. If it costs a manufacturer $12K to build a car, other than
for very grief periods, the supply of $11K cars will be zero. Making cars to
selll for less than cost, absent a government subsidy, is pointless. In fact,
making a car for less than cost PLUS a real profit less than available from
other investments is pretty much pointless. So, low demand, in the long run,
cannot drive the price down below a floor of cost plus a reasonable profit.

If something happens to raise cost for one manufacturer only, like a class
action suit or major recall, then that manufacturer suffers a competitive
disadvantage since he cannot pass that along to customers beyond the limits of
brand loyalty. But if something happens that raises the cost equally for ALL
manufacturers, like a rise in the cost of steel or a tax increase, that raises
the cost floor, and prices, regardless of demand.

All manufacturers are subject to the cost of corporate taxes, and the taxes
paid by their employees, and the taxes of their suppliers. All these taxes
contribute to the floor cost of producing goods and services below which low
demand cannot drive the price.

This is just as true for personal taxes. If the government were to impose a 20%
surtax on dentists incomes whose last names were in the first half of the
alphabet, I (Tabor) would be able to live well doing fillings at a price below
that which those dentists could get by on. But if you applied that surtax to
the incomes of all dentists, you're going to pay more for fillings, as we would
all raise prices to maintian our standard of living, otherwise why be a dentist
instead of a CFI?

Now apply that principle to everyone else who is not a dentist, but who sells
their labor to someone else, either directly or through an employer. Raise
income taxes on anyone, and all prices, for everything they contribute to
providing, go up. It is unavoidable. Income based taxes, either corporate or
personal, inevitably result in higher prices as they are passed on to the
consumer. Owners of businesses may serve as temporary buffers for tax
increases, but only briefly, or business comes to a halt. In the end, ALL
income based taxes actually impact our lives as a hidden sales tax paid by end
consumers, and those who appear to pay the income taxes are really only tax
collectors of this totally regressive, hidden sales tax.

Once the general public realizes that, class warfare over taxation becomes
pointless. Raising taxes on the baker effects everyone who eats bread. That is
the point of the FairTax (www.FairTax.org) effort, to bring that clarity to the
political process.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

Wdtabor opined

In article , "Ash Wyllie"
writes:


Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price
they pay for goods and services.

Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
current list price for its cars. Getting people to pay more would be
difficult.


That is a misconception about the relationship between supply and demand. We
all understand the demand side in the control of prices, but cost provides a
floor for supply. If it costs a manufacturer $12K to build a car, other than
for very grief periods, the supply of $11K cars will be zero. Making cars to
selll for less than cost, absent a government subsidy, is pointless. In fact,
making a car for less than cost PLUS a real profit less than available from
other investments is pretty much pointless. So, low demand, in the long run,
cannot drive the price down below a floor of cost plus a reasonable profit.

I don't disagree with you, except for one thing: Japanese, Korean and European
manufacturers are not subject to all the taxes that US manufacturers are. So
it is not always possible to pass additional taxes along to car buyers. So
employees and owners pay the tax.

If something happens to raise cost for one manufacturer only, like a class
action suit or major recall, then that manufacturer suffers a competitive
disadvantage since he cannot pass that along to customers beyond the limits
of brand loyalty. But if something happens that raises the cost equally for
ALL manufacturers, like a rise in the cost of steel or a tax increase, that
raises the cost floor, and prices, regardless of demand.

All manufacturers are subject to the cost of corporate taxes, and the taxes
paid by their employees, and the taxes of their suppliers. All these taxes
contribute to the floor cost of producing goods and services below which low
demand cannot drive the price.

This is just as true for personal taxes. If the government were to impose a
20% surtax on dentists incomes whose last names were in the first half of the
alphabet, I (Tabor) would be able to live well doing fillings at a price
below that which those dentists could get by on. But if you applied that
surtax to the incomes of all dentists, you're going to pay more for fillings,
as we would all raise prices to maintian our standard of living, otherwise
why be a dentist instead of a CFI?

Now apply that principle to everyone else who is not a dentist, but who sells
their labor to someone else, either directly or through an employer. Raise
income taxes on anyone, and all prices, for everything they contribute to
providing, go up. It is unavoidable. Income based taxes, either corporate or
personal, inevitably result in higher prices as they are passed on to the
consumer. Owners of businesses may serve as temporary buffers for tax
increases, but only briefly, or business comes to a halt. In the end, ALL
income based taxes actually impact our lives as a hidden sales tax paid by
end consumers, and those who appear to pay the income taxes are really only
tax collectors of this totally regressive, hidden sales tax.

Once the general public realizes that, class warfare over taxation becomes
pointless. Raising taxes on the baker effects everyone who eats bread. That
is the point of the FairTax (www.FairTax.org) effort, to bring that clarity
to the political process.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG


-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Tom Sixkiller opined

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Wdtabor opined

Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
employees,
customers or owners. But it is not corporations.


I forgot suppliers.

Same thing.


Actually, it's quite clear:

Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price
they
pay for goods and services.

Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
current list price for its cars.

That's a dealer issue, GM is still making a tidy sum on each vehicle
(regardless of what BS they post in the ads).


Getting people to pay more would be
difficult.

Hasn't stopped them in the past. Look at how much they spend for any form of
entertainment. People said they wouldn't go to the movies when the price hit
$4, $5, $8...but each year they set reconds as the price is not $8 and even
$10-12.



As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
FICA.

Taxes are usually paid by the owners in lower dividends or capital gains.
But
if the employment market is weak it is paid by employees. Strong unions
can
put pressure on non-union suppliers.

And thus depress wages further.


If there is no competition for the product customers pay the tax.

What product would that be? IAC, customers ALWAYS pay the tax; the money a
company has doesn't materialize out of thin air.


In all cases though, it is individuals who pay the tax, not companies. But
which set of individuals varies from company to company and time to time.

It's either customers in the form of higer prices, or employees in the for
of employers portion of FICA.


So it is not clear who pays corporate taxes.

Outside employment taxes, it's always the customer. No one else can pay the
taxes because no one else provides revenue for the company.

Tom Sixkiller opined

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Tom Sixkiller opined

"Ash Wyllie" wrote in message
...
Wdtabor opined

Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
employees,
customers or owners. But it is not corporations.


I forgot suppliers.

Same thing.


Actually, it's quite clear:

Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price
they
pay for goods and services.

Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
current list price for its cars.

That's a dealer issue, GM is still making a tidy sum on each vehicle
(regardless of what BS they post in the ads).


Getting people to pay more would be
difficult.

Hasn't stopped them in the past. Look at how much they spend for any form of
entertainment. People said they wouldn't go to the movies when the price hit
$4, $5, $8...but each year they set reconds as the price is not $8 and even
$10-12.

If one movie chain is taxed at a higher rate than the others, will it be
able to pass the tax onto movie goers? If it can't it will pass the tax onto
someone else. Or it will go out of business,


As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
FICA.

Taxes are usually paid by the owners in lower dividends or capital gains.
But
if the employment market is weak it is paid by employees. Strong unions
can
put pressure on non-union suppliers.

And thus depress wages further.

Which means that that set of employees is paying the tax.


If there is no competition for the product customers pay the tax.

What product would that be? IAC, customers ALWAYS pay the tax; the money a
company has doesn't materialize out of thin air.

Microsoft WIndows. Viagra is under patent these days. A book under
copyright.There are a large number of products with government enforced
monopolies.


In all cases though, it is individuals who pay the tax, not companies. But
which set of individuals varies from company to company and time to time.

It's either customers in the form of higer prices, or employees in the for
of employers portion of FICA.


So it is not clear who pays corporate taxes.

Outside employment taxes, it's always the customer. No one else can pay the
taxes because no one else provides revenue for the company.

Only if the customer has no other option. Then it is usually the owners.



-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX