when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

Basic rules for Class C is paragraph 3-2-4 of the AIM:
1. When controller responds WITH your tail number that is
clearance to enter the class C airspace..
2. Exception to this rule is if the controller says, "Remain outside the
class Charlie airspace and standby." he is expected/required to use that
exact phrase

Now, the rule not printed that I can see is the exact phrase for
cancelling the remain clear instruction... So, per the Class C rules when
the controller called you back the second time by 'tail number', and said,
"radar contact established", etc., that was again establishing radio
contact
(per rule #1) and absent instructions to the contrary you are now cleared
to enter the class C, and if he doesn't like your new heading, he will say
so...


Wrong. Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.



Therefore, you were cleared and did not bust any rules...
I would have preferred that he said, cleared to enter my airspace, or the
class c, etc., somewhere in his patter - obviously he understands rule #1
and expects you to also understand it...


Once told to remain clear, entering without an explicit instruction that
permitted entry, such as "proceed on course" or "fly heading xxx", would be
a violation of FAR 91.123(b).

Ahh jeez, Steven... Firstly, because the question was not one for which
there is a pat answer in the AIM, I researched my answer before giving
it... A habit more people on here could benefit from... And, even though I
couched my answer in gentle terms, it is the correct regulatory answer, not
a guess...

As I commented, I don't see specific phrase in the AIM for the controller to
use for clearing an aircraft into the Class C after being told to stand
clear - and it might be a good idea...

But I could still be wrong, so I just polled both the Supervisor of a Class
C airspace, and I polled the supervisor of the Michigan FSDO... Both agree
that the AIM is correct... A pilot is cleared into the class C when the
controller establishes radio contact using the tail number; and does not
instruct him to remain clear... Nothing more is required...

So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear of
Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.", or words to
that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30 point 00",
or some variation and shuts up - because he has established radio contact
which is 'the clearance to enter'...

So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing radio
contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..
denny

"Steven P. McNicoll" Wrong. Once told to memain clear you must remain
clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.

Even though I think there is some grey area here, I agree with the overly
curt but usually accurate Steven.

The last instruction issued was "remain clear' and that was issued, by tail
number, by approach to the aircraft (they would not have issued a
transponder without a tail number).

The grey area is that the 'remain clear' was issued *before departure*.
Once in the air, it seems reasonable to assume that an acknowleged call with
tail number is clearance in. But it seems ill advised to proceed on such an
assumption.

Here's the problem faced by the controller - a pilot asks for FF or whatever
before takeoff. The controller has absolutely no way to fix the time the
pilot will depart. So in order to avoid a misunderstanding about being
cleared into Class C while on the ground, he issues a 'remain clear' by
default. Once the pilot is in the air, the normal provisions would then
apply. An acknowledged call would be clearance into the space unless a
'remain clear' is issued. I'd bet that's what the controller intended ....
but I wouldn't act on it. It's a nasty grey area and requires some explicit
clarification before proceeding.

In IFR land, the problem is avoided by issuing a void time clearance in
order to fix the time that the pilot takes off and airspace has to be
cleared.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
Ahh jeez, Steven... Firstly, because the question was not one for which
there is a pat answer in the AIM, I researched my answer before giving
it... A habit more people on here could benefit from... And, even though
I
couched my answer in gentle terms, it is the correct regulatory answer,
not
a guess...

As I commented, I don't see specific phrase in the AIM for the controller
to
use for clearing an aircraft into the Class C after being told to stand
clear - and it might be a good idea...

But I could still be wrong, so I just polled both the Supervisor of a
Class
C airspace, and I polled the supervisor of the Michigan FSDO... Both
agree
that the AIM is correct... A pilot is cleared into the class C when the
controller establishes radio contact using the tail number; and does not
instruct him to remain clear... Nothing more is required...

So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear
of
Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.", or words to
that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30 point 00",
or some variation and shuts up - because he has established radio
contact
which is 'the clearance to enter'...

So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio
contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..
denny

"Steven P. McNicoll" Wrong. Once told to memain clear you must remain
clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
m...
Even though I think there is some grey area here, I agree with the overly
curt but usually accurate Steven.

One of the things expressed by the folks I talked to; they get frustrated by
pilots who enter the system and do not understand the most basic of rules,
even when the controller uses the exact phrasing that the AIM calls out...
As the one said, "I'm here for safety of flight, not to be your CFI..."
denny

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
m...
Even though I think there is some grey area here, I agree with the
overly
curt but usually accurate Steven.

One of the things expressed by the folks I talked to; they get frustrated
by
pilots who enter the system and do not understand the most basic of rules,
even when the controller uses the exact phrasing that the AIM calls out...
As the one said, "I'm here for safety of flight, not to be your CFI..."
denny

I'm sure it is frustrating. But the answer to the original question
remained murky to me. So I too went back to the FARs and the AIM. My
understanding now is that you are correct Dennis. The pilot was legal but
the sequence of communciations from ATC was confusing. And getting to that
conclusion was not straightforward.

ATC had issued a "remain clear" before departure. And the implication in
the original post was the the tail number was used since a squawk code was
issued before the departure.

Steven stated, "Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the
controller issues an instruction that permits entry." As a practical
matter, I would agree. But Dennis goes on to state, "...he has established
radio contact which is 'the clearance to enter'...So, I asked both(FAA
types) , wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to enter the
C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing radio
contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM." I say
b*** s*** to the FAA types.

I would counter that the AIM is not regulatory and that an ATC communication
using your tail number is not always a clearance to enter. An example
would be where per the AIM, ATC says "1234Alpha, remain outside Class
Charlie and standby". Then follows with a "1234 Alpha traffic 11 oclock
3,000feet". I would maintain that I've been told to remain clear and that
the subsequent tail number identified communication *does not* clear me to
enter. I would still be waiting for an instruction that permits entry.

So, if a pilot has been told to remain clear and identified by tail number,
then he should remain clear until given an instruction that permits entry.
A vector would do the trick. Legally, a 'radar contact and altimeter' would
probably keep you out of jail but would be a bit stupid. Any frustration by
ATC is misguided. A simple "...and proceed direct xxx" would do. I've been
in this situation and in that particular case each traffic advisory was
accompanied by the repeated instruction to 'remain clear'. Now that was
clear!

But in this case, the key is that the "remain clear" was issued before
departure and therefore doesn't play a part in subsequent communications
after departure. There's no requirement to establish communications from an
underlying airport before departure so any radio contact established before
departure shouldn't be considered qualification to enter the Class C. By
the same token, the admonishment to remain clear of Class C issued before
departure is meaningless once one has departed. If one establishes radio
contact after departure, then one is cleared to enter just as the original
poster did.

It's clear to me now but it certainly isn't clear "according to the most
basic of rules".Nor is it clear to the well trained pilot in actual flight.
Otherwise their wouldn't be so much confusion on the part of so many
knowledgeable people on this newsgroup.

Thanks for an excuse to study the FAR/AIM.

"Maule Driver" . The pilot was legal but
the sequence of communciations from ATC was confusing. And getting to
that
conclusion was not straightforward.

Absolute agreement on that... And, I actually learned something, so it was
win-win... I do owe a controller a ride however, so knowledge is never
free...

denny

Without knowing what exactly was said by the controller on the second
call we can go around and around on this until the cows come home and
not come to a definate conclusion about whether he was legal to
proceed. Any debate is really meaningless without knowlege of exactly
what was said by the controller on the second call.


In article , Maule
Driver wrote:

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
m...
Even though I think there is some grey area here, I agree with the
overly
curt but usually accurate Steven.

One of the things expressed by the folks I talked to; they get frustrated
by
pilots who enter the system and do not understand the most basic of rules,
even when the controller uses the exact phrasing that the AIM calls out...
As the one said, "I'm here for safety of flight, not to be your CFI..."
denny

I'm sure it is frustrating. But the answer to the original question
remained murky to me. So I too went back to the FARs and the AIM. My
understanding now is that you are correct Dennis. The pilot was legal but
the sequence of communciations from ATC was confusing. And getting to that
conclusion was not straightforward.

ATC had issued a "remain clear" before departure. And the implication in
the original post was the the tail number was used since a squawk code was
issued before the departure.

Steven stated, "Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the
controller issues an instruction that permits entry." As a practical
matter, I would agree. But Dennis goes on to state, "...he has established
radio contact which is 'the clearance to enter'...So, I asked both(FAA
types) , wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to enter the
C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing radio
contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM." I say
b*** s*** to the FAA types.

I would counter that the AIM is not regulatory and that an ATC communication
using your tail number is not always a clearance to enter. An example
would be where per the AIM, ATC says "1234Alpha, remain outside Class
Charlie and standby". Then follows with a "1234 Alpha traffic 11 oclock
3,000feet". I would maintain that I've been told to remain clear and that
the subsequent tail number identified communication *does not* clear me to
enter. I would still be waiting for an instruction that permits entry.

So, if a pilot has been told to remain clear and identified by tail number,
then he should remain clear until given an instruction that permits entry.
A vector would do the trick. Legally, a 'radar contact and altimeter' would
probably keep you out of jail but would be a bit stupid. Any frustration by
ATC is misguided. A simple "...and proceed direct xxx" would do. I've been
in this situation and in that particular case each traffic advisory was
accompanied by the repeated instruction to 'remain clear'. Now that was
clear!

But in this case, the key is that the "remain clear" was issued before
departure and therefore doesn't play a part in subsequent communications
after departure. There's no requirement to establish communications from an
underlying airport before departure so any radio contact established before
departure shouldn't be considered qualification to enter the Class C. By
the same token, the admonishment to remain clear of Class C issued before
departure is meaningless once one has departed. If one establishes radio
contact after departure, then one is cleared to enter just as the original
poster did.

It's clear to me now but it certainly isn't clear "according to the most
basic of rules".Nor is it clear to the well trained pilot in actual flight.
Otherwise their wouldn't be so much confusion on the part of so many
knowledgeable people on this newsgroup.

Thanks for an excuse to study the FAR/AIM.

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

Without knowing what exactly was said by the controller on the second
call we can go around and around on this until the cows come home and
not come to a definate conclusion about whether he was legal to
proceed. Any debate is really meaningless without knowlege of exactly
what was said by the controller on the second call.


If he was issued an instruction that overrode the previous instruction to
remain clear of Class C airspace then he was legal to enter Class C
airspace. If he was not issued an instruction that overrode the previous
instruction to remain clear of Class C airspace then he was not legal to
enter Class C airspace. There is no gray area here.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
news

I'm sure it is frustrating. But the answer to the original question
remained murky to me. So I too went back to the FARs and the
AIM. My understanding now is that you are correct Dennis. The
pilot was legal but the sequence of communciations from ATC was confusing.
And getting to that conclusion was not straightforward.


The answer to the original question, "when does the 'remain clear of class C
airspace' instruction end?", is clear, it ends when overridden by another
instruction.



ATC had issued a "remain clear" before departure. And the implication
in the original post was the the tail number was used since a squawk code
was issued before the departure.

Steven stated, "Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the
controller issues an instruction that permits entry." As a practical
matter, I would agree. But Dennis goes on to state, "...he has
established radio contact which is 'the clearance to enter'...So, I
asked both (FAA types), wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now
'cleared to enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that
there is no confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is
establishing radio contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out
in the AIM." I say b*** s*** to the FAA types.


Radio contact was established when the aircraft was still on the ground, at
the same time the controller said "after departure remain clear of the class
C airspace". Establishing radio contact without an instruction to remain
clear of Class C airspace permits entry, establishing radio contact with an
instruction to remain clear does not permit entry.



I would counter that the AIM is not regulatory and that an ATC
communication using your tail number is not always a clearance
to enter. An example would be where per the AIM, ATC says
"1234Alpha, remain outside Class Charlie and standby". Then
follows with a "1234 Alpha traffic 11 oclock 3,000feet". I would
maintain that I've been told to remain clear and that
the subsequent tail number identified communication *does not*
clear me to enter. I would still be waiting for an instruction that
permits entry.


Exactly.



So, if a pilot has been told to remain clear and identified by tail
number, then he should remain clear until given an instruction that
permits entry. A vector would do the trick. Legally, a 'radar
contact and altimeter' would probably keep you out of jail but
would be a bit stupid.


Radar contact and an altimeter does not override an instruction to remain
clear of Class C airspace and neither is an entry requirement.



But in this case, the key is that the "remain clear" was issued before
departure and therefore doesn't play a part in subsequent
communications after departure.


You've got it backwards. Before departure the aircraft is on the ground
outside of Class C airspace. "Remain clear" can only apply after departure.



There's no requirement to establish communications from an
underlying airport before departure so any radio contact established
before departure shouldn't be considered qualification to enter the
Class C.


Why not? There's no requirement to establish radio contact 40 miles from
the Class C boundary but if one does so then one is permitted entry.



By the same token, the admonishment to remain clear of Class C
issued before departure is meaningless once one has departed.


Actually, it is meaningful only after departure. It isn't meaningful before
departure because it isn't possible to enter the Class C airspace without
departing.



If one establishes radio contact
after departure, then one is cleared to enter just as the original
poster did.


Not if one has been instructed to remain clear.



It's clear to me now but it certainly isn't clear "according to the most
basic of rules".


It doesn't sound like it's clear to you yet.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

Ahh jeez, Steven... Firstly, because the question was not one for which
there is a pat answer in the AIM, I researched my answer before giving
it... A habit more people on here could benefit from... And, even though
I couched my answer in gentle terms, it is the correct regulatory answer,
not a guess...


Your answer is wrong, and the AIM is not regulatory.



As I commented, I don't see specific phrase in the AIM for the
controller to use for clearing an aircraft into the Class C after being
told to stand clear - and it might be a good idea...


Specific phrases for controller usage are found in FAA Order 7110.65, but
there is no phrase like "cancel your last instruction and now comply with
this instruction", nor should there be. Previous instructions are simply
overridden by subsequent instructions. For example, an aircraft may have
been instructed to "fly heading 360", and a bit later is instructed to "turn
right heading 020". The 360 heading isn't cancelled prior to the issuance
of the 020 heading, the 360 heading is simply overridden by the 020 heading.



But I could still be wrong, so I just polled both the Supervisor of a
Class C airspace, and I polled the supervisor of the Michigan FSDO...
Both agree that the AIM is correct... A pilot is cleared into the class
C when the controller establishes radio contact using the tail number;
and does not instruct him to remain clear... Nothing more is required...


That's true, but that's not what happened in this case. In this case the
pilot was instructed to remain clear of the Class C airspace.



So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear
of Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.",
or words to that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30
point 00", or some variation and shuts up - because he has
established radio contact which is 'the clearance to enter'...


Wrong. Radio contact was established when the controller said, "November
1234 remain clear of Class Charlie."



So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..


Yes, if nothing else is said that is correct. But in this case the aircraft
was instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace and that instruction
remains in effect until some instruction is issued that permits entry.