when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
The last instruction issued by ATC in this case was "remain clear of the
Class C airspace. That instruction remains in effect until overridden by
another instruction. How can it be any other way?

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
"Steven P. McNicoll"
The last instruction issued by ATC in this case was "remain clear of the
Class C airspace. That instruction remains in effect until overridden
by
another instruction. How can it be any other way?

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?

I think you are getting to the heart of the matter. The key is that the
"remain clear' was issued before departure. It is a meaningless
admonishment by ATC. They can't clear you to enter before departure anymore
than they need to tell you to remain clear. What it is really meant to
convey is that "just because you are about ready to depart and we've made
radio contact with N-numbers, don't think it means that radio contact has
been established for the purpose of entering my Class C - let's talk after
you depart"

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
m...

I think you are getting to the heart of the matter. The key is that the
"remain clear' was issued before departure. It is a meaningless
admonishment by ATC. They can't clear you to enter before departure
anymore than they need to tell you to remain clear.


Meaningless before departure, meaningful after departure.



What it is really meant to convey is that "just because you are about
ready to depart and we've made radio contact with N-numbers, don't
think it means that radio contact has been established for the purpose
of entering my Class C - let's talk after you depart"


What it really means is "remain outside Class C airspace until I say
something that permits entry."

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
m...

What it is really meant to convey is that "just because you are about
ready to depart and we've made radio contact with N-numbers, don't
think it means that radio contact has been established for the purpose
of entering my Class C - let's talk after you depart"


What it really means is "remain outside Class C airspace until I say
something that permits entry."



These are both right. Using the tail number is enough to establish radio
contact and grants permission to enter the Class C. That is exactly why the
extra "remain clear of the Class C" was included in the departure clearance.
If the tail number were not enough, then that would not be necessary.

After departure, the tail number and a radar contact are enough radio
contact to enter the class C. If the controller needed something different,
it would be added as a "Cessna 1234, radar contact, remain clear of the
class C."

-------------------------------

Travis

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

These are both right. Using the tail number is enough to establish radio
contact and grants permission to enter the Class C. That is exactly why
the extra "remain clear of the Class C" was included in the departure
clearance. If the tail number were not enough, then that would not be
necessary.

After departure, the tail number and a radar contact are enough radio
contact to enter the class C. If the controller needed something
different,
it would be added as a "Cessna 1234, radar contact, remain clear of the
class C."


The "remain clear of the Class C" applies only after departure and remains
in effect until overridden by an instruction that permits or requires entry.

Not true. A "remain clear" prior to departure is no different than one in
the air. After departure, if the controller of the class C airspace makes
radio contact, that is clearance to enter.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

These are both right. Using the tail number is enough to establish radio
contact and grants permission to enter the Class C. That is exactly why
the extra "remain clear of the Class C" was included in the departure
clearance. If the tail number were not enough, then that would not be
necessary.

After departure, the tail number and a radar contact are enough radio
contact to enter the class C. If the controller needed something
different,
it would be added as a "Cessna 1234, radar contact, remain clear of the
class C."


The "remain clear of the Class C" applies only after departure and remains
in effect until overridden by an instruction that permits or requires
entry.

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

Not true. A "remain clear" prior to departure is no different than one in
the air. After departure, if the controller of the class C airspace makes
radio contact, that is clearance to enter.


Wrong. I don't know who told you that but it is simply not correct. It is
illogical and unsupported by any documentation. Once instructed to remain
clear of Class C airspace you must remain clear until you receive an
instruction that permits or requires entry. That is not my opinion, that is
a fact.

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:6idXb.310621$na.463020@attbi_s04...

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?


What happened yesterday? Why didn't the pilot respond to the controller's
calls?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:6idXb.310621$na.463020@attbi_s04...

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?


What happened yesterday? Why didn't the pilot respond to the controller's
calls?

Who said the pilot didn't respond? ATC: "Cessna 12345, remain clear of
Class C". N12345: "Roger". N12345 flies around the Class C to some
destination, then returns the following day and establishes the requisite
two-way communication before entering Class C. Is yesterday's "remain
clear" instruction still in effect? If not, when did it expire?

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:uGLXb.186249$U%5.916363@attbi_s03...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:6idXb.310621$na.463020@attbi_s04...

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still
in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?


What happened yesterday? Why didn't the pilot respond to the
controller's
calls?

Who said the pilot didn't respond? ATC: "Cessna 12345, remain clear of
Class C". N12345: "Roger". N12345 flies around the Class C to some
destination, then returns the following day and establishes the requisite
two-way communication before entering Class C. Is yesterday's "remain
clear" instruction still in effect? If not, when did it expire?

--Gary



It doesn't matter but conceptually, the "remain clear" does not expire. The
next day, the pilot will again make contact to gain entry to the class C.
The pilot will say, "Cessna 1234, 8 NE, landing Big City, with information
Echo." The controller will respond with "Cessna 1234, standby" - which is a
clearance to enter the class C, negating any previous instructions to remain
clear. Hearing no acknowledgement, or an explicit "remain clear" is a new
instruction to remain clear.

Whether it is a few minutes later, later the same day, the next day,
whatever, there is no explicit cancelation of the "remain clear" necessary.

-------------------------------
Travis