when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:6idXb.310621$na.463020@attbi_s04...

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?


What happened yesterday? Why didn't the pilot respond to the controller's
calls?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:6idXb.310621$na.463020@attbi_s04...

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?


What happened yesterday? Why didn't the pilot respond to the controller's
calls?

Who said the pilot didn't respond? ATC: "Cessna 12345, remain clear of
Class C". N12345: "Roger". N12345 flies around the Class C to some
destination, then returns the following day and establishes the requisite
two-way communication before entering Class C. Is yesterday's "remain
clear" instruction still in effect? If not, when did it expire?

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:uGLXb.186249$U%5.916363@attbi_s03...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:6idXb.310621$na.463020@attbi_s04...

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still
in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?


What happened yesterday? Why didn't the pilot respond to the
controller's
calls?

Who said the pilot didn't respond? ATC: "Cessna 12345, remain clear of
Class C". N12345: "Roger". N12345 flies around the Class C to some
destination, then returns the following day and establishes the requisite
two-way communication before entering Class C. Is yesterday's "remain
clear" instruction still in effect? If not, when did it expire?

--Gary



It doesn't matter but conceptually, the "remain clear" does not expire. The
next day, the pilot will again make contact to gain entry to the class C.
The pilot will say, "Cessna 1234, 8 NE, landing Big City, with information
Echo." The controller will respond with "Cessna 1234, standby" - which is a
clearance to enter the class C, negating any previous instructions to remain
clear. Hearing no acknowledgement, or an explicit "remain clear" is a new
instruction to remain clear.

Whether it is a few minutes later, later the same day, the next day,
whatever, there is no explicit cancelation of the "remain clear" necessary.

-------------------------------
Travis

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

It doesn't matter but conceptually, the "remain clear" does not expire.
The next day, the pilot will again make contact to gain entry to the
class C. The pilot will say, "Cessna 1234, 8 NE, landing Big City,
with information Echo." The controller will respond with "Cessna
1234, standby" - which is a clearance to enter the class C, negating
any previous instructions to remain clear.


You're right that he can enter Class C airspace but for the wrong reason.
The instruction to remain clear was not carried forward to the next day.
The controller tried to contact the aircraft again a couple of times, the
pilot didn't respond, the controller watched his target proceed around the
Class C airspace, so he concluded the pilot no longer wanted to enter the
airspace and discarded the strip. The call the following day is a new
flight unrelated to the previous.

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:uGLXb.186249$U%5.916363@attbi_s03...

Who said the pilot didn't respond?


I did.



ATC: "Cessna 12345, remain clear
of Class C". N12345: "Roger". N12345 flies around the Class C to
some destination,


So the pilot changed his mind about entering the Class C airspace?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:uGLXb.186249$U%5.916363@attbi_s03...

Who said the pilot didn't respond?


I did.



ATC: "Cessna 12345, remain clear
of Class C". N12345: "Roger". N12345 flies around the Class C to
some destination,


So the pilot changed his mind about entering the Class C airspace?

The pilot was told not to enter the Class C, so he went around it, with no
further relevant communication with ATC. Then he came back the next day and
again established two-way communication. Did the remain-clear instruction
expire in the meantime? If so, when?

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:g2TXb.40634$yE5.152096@attbi_s54...

The pilot was told not to enter the Class C, so he went around it, with no
further relevant communication with ATC.


Right. The pilot left the frequency so did not hear several calls from the
controller. The controller saw the target proceeding around the Class C
airspace, concluded the pilot no longer wished to transit Class C airspace,
so he discarded the strip.



Then he came back the next day and
again established two-way communication. Did the remain-clear
instruction expire in the meantime? If so, when?


The pilot changed his mind about Class C services. The controller discarded
the strip. Nothing was carried forward to the next day. The next day's
request had nothing to do with the previous day's.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
Right. The pilot left the frequency so did not hear several calls from
the
controller.

What "several calls"? It is hypothetically possible that the controller
never called back. I certainly have no shortage of instances where ATC
simply forgot I exist, even when I was flying on an instrument flight plan.

It's not your hypothetical situation; you don't get to pick and choose the
specifics. The person posing the hypothetical situation does.

The controller saw the target proceeding around the Class C
airspace, concluded the pilot no longer wished to transit Class C
airspace,
so he discarded the strip.

Says who? Who knows what the controller did or did not do, except that
controller?

The pilot changed his mind about Class C services. The controller
discarded
the strip. Nothing was carried forward to the next day. The next day's
request had nothing to do with the previous day's.

So your claim is that the question of whether two-way radio contact suffices
to allow entry into the Class C hinges on whether there's a flight strip?
How in the world is the pilot to know whether a flight strip exists or not?
That's not the sort of thing ATC is regularly reporting to us.

What about the pilot who is told to remain clear, but who never gets a
flight strip in the first place? What if the strip is discarded (for
whatever reason) before two-way radio contact is made? Even if only a short
period of time has passed? How is the pilot to know that they may enter the
Class C, since they won't know the status of the flight strip, whether it
ever existed, and whether it still exists?

There is no way for the pilot to know whether a flight strip still exists,
therefore the existence of the flight strip is completely irrelevant to the
question of whether the pilot may enter the Class C or not. A controller
might think it's completely black and white -- since after all, they have
the strip right in front of them or they don't -- but that controller would
be an idiot for thinking so, failing to comprehend that they only have half
the equation.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

What "several calls"?


The several calls to the aircraft from the controller he had established
communications with and who had told him to remain clear. Once the workload
or traffic conditions that had prevent immediate provision of Class C
services were under control the controller would have called the aircraft so
he could provide the requested services. Those calls.



It's not your hypothetical situation; you don't get to pick and choose the
specifics. The person posing the hypothetical situation does.


Sorry. I assumed it was a realistic hypothetical. My mistake.



Says who?


Says me.



Who knows what the controller did or did not do, except that
controller?


I know what controllers do.



So your claim is that the question of whether two-way radio
contact suffices to allow entry into the Class C hinges on whether
there's a flight strip?


Nope.



How in the world is the pilot to know whether a flight strip exists or
not?


He wouldn't, nor is it relevant to the pilot.



That's not the sort of thing ATC is regularly reporting to us.


As far as you understand.



What about the pilot who is told to remain clear, but who never gets a
flight strip in the first place?


What about him?



What if the strip is discarded (for whatever reason) before two-way
radio contact is made? Even if only a short period of time has passed?
How is the pilot to know that they may enter the Class C, since they
won't know the status of the flight strip, whether it
ever existed, and whether it still exists?


The pilot should know that he may not enter Class C airspace because radio
contact has not been made.



There is no way for the pilot to know whether a flight strip still exists,
therefore the existence of the flight strip is completely irrelevant to
the
question of whether the pilot may enter the Class C or not.


Exactly.



A controller
might think it's completely black and white -- since after all, they have
the strip right in front of them or they don't -- but that controller
would
be an idiot for thinking so, failing to comprehend that they only have
half
the equation.


Why are you fixated on the strip? The strip has nothing to do with entering
Class C airspace. What made you think it did?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
The pilot changed his mind about Class C services. The controller
discarded
the strip. Nothing was carried forward to the next day. The next day's
request had nothing to do with the previous day's.

You still haven't answered the question of *when* you claim the remain-clear
instruction expires (in the sense that it no longer need be explicitly
rescinded in order for subsequent two-way communication to constitute
permission to enter). Is it when the pilot changes his mind? When the
controller discards the strip? After ten minutes? At midnight, when the
next day starts? Or when?

You acknowledge that the remain-clear doesn't carry forward forever. But if
there's no way to say when it stops, then (as others have proposed) a
plausible alternative interpretation is that it stops immediately, in the
sense that *any* subsequent call-sign "handshake" with ATC establishes
permission to enter (unless the remain-clear is then repeated).

--Gary