when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
Right. The pilot left the frequency so did not hear several calls from
the
controller.

What "several calls"? It is hypothetically possible that the controller
never called back. I certainly have no shortage of instances where ATC
simply forgot I exist, even when I was flying on an instrument flight plan.

It's not your hypothetical situation; you don't get to pick and choose the
specifics. The person posing the hypothetical situation does.

The controller saw the target proceeding around the Class C
airspace, concluded the pilot no longer wished to transit Class C
airspace,
so he discarded the strip.

Says who? Who knows what the controller did or did not do, except that
controller?

The pilot changed his mind about Class C services. The controller
discarded
the strip. Nothing was carried forward to the next day. The next day's
request had nothing to do with the previous day's.

So your claim is that the question of whether two-way radio contact suffices
to allow entry into the Class C hinges on whether there's a flight strip?
How in the world is the pilot to know whether a flight strip exists or not?
That's not the sort of thing ATC is regularly reporting to us.

What about the pilot who is told to remain clear, but who never gets a
flight strip in the first place? What if the strip is discarded (for
whatever reason) before two-way radio contact is made? Even if only a short
period of time has passed? How is the pilot to know that they may enter the
Class C, since they won't know the status of the flight strip, whether it
ever existed, and whether it still exists?

There is no way for the pilot to know whether a flight strip still exists,
therefore the existence of the flight strip is completely irrelevant to the
question of whether the pilot may enter the Class C or not. A controller
might think it's completely black and white -- since after all, they have
the strip right in front of them or they don't -- but that controller would
be an idiot for thinking so, failing to comprehend that they only have half
the equation.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

What "several calls"?


The several calls to the aircraft from the controller he had established
communications with and who had told him to remain clear. Once the workload
or traffic conditions that had prevent immediate provision of Class C
services were under control the controller would have called the aircraft so
he could provide the requested services. Those calls.



It's not your hypothetical situation; you don't get to pick and choose the
specifics. The person posing the hypothetical situation does.


Sorry. I assumed it was a realistic hypothetical. My mistake.



Says who?


Says me.



Who knows what the controller did or did not do, except that
controller?


I know what controllers do.



So your claim is that the question of whether two-way radio
contact suffices to allow entry into the Class C hinges on whether
there's a flight strip?


Nope.



How in the world is the pilot to know whether a flight strip exists or
not?


He wouldn't, nor is it relevant to the pilot.



That's not the sort of thing ATC is regularly reporting to us.


As far as you understand.



What about the pilot who is told to remain clear, but who never gets a
flight strip in the first place?


What about him?



What if the strip is discarded (for whatever reason) before two-way
radio contact is made? Even if only a short period of time has passed?
How is the pilot to know that they may enter the Class C, since they
won't know the status of the flight strip, whether it
ever existed, and whether it still exists?


The pilot should know that he may not enter Class C airspace because radio
contact has not been made.



There is no way for the pilot to know whether a flight strip still exists,
therefore the existence of the flight strip is completely irrelevant to
the
question of whether the pilot may enter the Class C or not.


Exactly.



A controller
might think it's completely black and white -- since after all, they have
the strip right in front of them or they don't -- but that controller
would
be an idiot for thinking so, failing to comprehend that they only have
half
the equation.


Why are you fixated on the strip? The strip has nothing to do with entering
Class C airspace. What made you think it did?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
Sorry. I assumed it was a realistic hypothetical. My mistake.

There's nothing unrealistic about a controller forgetting about traffic.
Happens all the time.

Says who?

Says me.

That was rhetorical. You don't have the authority to set the parameters for
the hypothetical situation, since you didn't pose the situation.

I know what controllers do.

You know what you'd like all controllers to do always. But they don't
comply.

Why are you fixated on the strip? The strip has nothing to do with
entering
Class C airspace. What made you think it did?

Your claim that the absence of a strip is why the "remain clear" is no
longer valid the next day.

Either the strip is important or it's not. If it's not (as you are now
saying), then its absence the next day is completely irrelevant to the
question of whether the "remain clear" is still in effect.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

There's nothing unrealistic about a controller forgetting about traffic.
Happens all the time.


Actually, it's pretty rare. What does happen fairly often is pilots miss
radio calls shipping them to another frequency. These pilots don't realize
they've missed a few radio calls and wrongly assume ATC forgot about them.



That was rhetorical. You don't have the authority to set the
parameters for the hypothetical situation, since you didn't pose
the situation.


I set no parameters. I simply assumed Mr. Drescher was asking a real-world
hypothetical question.



You know what you'd like all controllers to do always. But they don't
comply.


I know what all controllers are supposed to do, you aren't in a position to
know if they comply with requirements.



Your claim that the absence of a strip is why the "remain clear" is no
longer valid the next day.


I didn't make such a claim.



Either the strip is important or it's not. If it's not (as you are now
saying), then its absence the next day is completely irrelevant to the
question of whether the "remain clear" is still in effect.


The strip is a part of it. It is the record of the contact. The strip was
placed in the discard pile when the controller concluded he no longer wanted
Class C services.