when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Mark" wrote in message
om...
[...]
Again, sorry to bust you like this. However I feel if you had the
balls to write this obvious lack of judgement in your flying skill,
then you open yourself up to my wrath.

Your "wrath"? LOL! That's all the wrath you've got? I've seen mice with
more wrath.

In any case, it should be clear enough to you from the direction the
thread's taken that the issue isn't quite as clear, cut, and dried as you
think it is. Perhaps you failed to notice that the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, while the airplane was
still on the ground?

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
"Mark" wrote in message
om...
[...]
Again, sorry to bust you like this. However I feel if you had the
balls to write this obvious lack of judgement in your flying skill,
then you open yourself up to my wrath.

Your "wrath"? LOL! That's all the wrath you've got? I've seen mice with
more wrath.

In any case, it should be clear enough to you from the direction the
thread's taken that the issue isn't quite as clear, cut, and dried as you
think it is. Perhaps you failed to notice that the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, while the airplane was
still on the ground?

Pete

Pete:
I was trying to be a little nice, but I guess you expected more?

It's nice to have a NG forum to debate these issues AFTER the fact,
however in the cockpit you don't have the luxery of debating the issue
and looking up every nuance in the FAR's. The pilot was told "after
departure remain clear of the class C airspace". Then "After
departure" he was call with some trivial info and then "I turned and
headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the class C to
the surface airspace.". If a different controller told him to cross
into class C, then it's legal to ENTER class C. However I simple call
by this pilot with the phrase "Can I enter Class Charlie?" would have
done wonders to clear things up between the pilot and the new
controller.

I teach students that yes, you follow the FAR's. However when in
doubt or confused, TALK TO THE CONTROLLER AND CLEAR IT UP! You have a
brain, use it. There has been many accidents where lack of
communication was the cause. Most students want to act professional
and DON'T ask questions on the radio. However MORE private pilots
THINK since they have a license they don't NEED to ask questions.
This problem is compounded when flying with a fellow pilot, they don't
want to look stupid in front of a peer. I have more respect for a
pilot that will put their ego aside and ask a question over one that
pretends they are Mr. Right Stuff.

All this debate BS above is nice for the day after. However you need
to remember to teach the proper responce when you don't have the
luxery of time to think a problem through. Aviate, Navigate and
Communicate.

"Mark" wrote in message
om...

Pete:
I was trying to be a little nice, but I guess you expected more?

It's nice to have a NG forum to debate these issues AFTER the fact,
however in the cockpit you don't have the luxery of debating the issue
and looking up every nuance in the FAR's. The pilot was told "after
departure remain clear of the class C airspace". Then "After
departure" he was call with some trivial info and then "I turned and
headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the class C to
the surface airspace.". If a different controller told him to cross
into class C, then it's legal to ENTER class C. However I simple call
by this pilot with the phrase "Can I enter Class Charlie?" would have
done wonders to clear things up between the pilot and the new
controller.

I teach students that yes, you follow the FAR's. However when in
doubt or confused, TALK TO THE CONTROLLER AND CLEAR IT UP! You have a
brain, use it. There has been many accidents where lack of
communication was the cause. Most students want to act professional
and DON'T ask questions on the radio. However MORE private pilots
THINK since they have a license they don't NEED to ask questions.
This problem is compounded when flying with a fellow pilot, they don't
want to look stupid in front of a peer. I have more respect for a
pilot that will put their ego aside and ask a question over one that
pretends they are Mr. Right Stuff.

All this debate BS above is nice for the day after. However you need
to remember to teach the proper responce when you don't have the
luxery of time to think a problem through. Aviate, Navigate and
Communicate.

I take it that your capitals are directed at those of us continuing the
debate beyond its useful life. Otherwise, I pitty your poor students.

You are correct that, when unsure, we should not be affraid to ask for
clarification. In this case, the flying pilot wasn't unsure. He did what he
thought was permissible. He had no reason to ask for clarification from the
controller.

If the non-flying pilot thought it was wrong, he should have said so. Maybe
the CRM wasn't what it should be. Maybe it didn't occur to him until he was
on the ground. For whatever reason, the non-flying pilot must not have been
sure enough of himself to question it in the air. He was right to voice it
at some time, for his own education.

I happen to believe that the pilot was correct, did not need to ask for
permission and was free to enter the class C. But, thanks to all this debate
BS, I at least now know that it may not be clear cut. The next time I talk
to the controllers at my home base, I'll ask them.

-------------------------------
Travis

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message link.net...
I take it that your capitals are directed at those of us continuing the
debate beyond its useful life. Otherwise, I pitty your poor students.


When instructing I usually end a comment like that with a Howard Dean
"AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHH".

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

I happen to believe that the pilot was correct, did not need to ask for
permission and was free to enter the class C.


You've made it very clear that is what you believe, what you haven't
explained is why you believe it.



But, thanks to all this debate BS, I at least now know that it may
not be clear cut. The next time I talk to the controllers at my
home base, I'll ask them.


What makes you think they'd know anything about it?

Ignore Steve, he's on a jihad... He is only looking for someone to
browbeat...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

I happen to believe that the pilot was correct, did not need to ask for
permission and was free to enter the class C.


You've made it very clear that is what you believe, what you haven't
explained is why you believe it.

Oh, sure I have. Authorization to enter the class C is defined by two-way
radio communication lacking instructions to remain clear. The AIM provides
the simple phrase "Cessna 1234, standby" as an example defining two-way
radio communication. There is no FAR or AIM description that says that once
a "remain clear" has been issued that a more explicit instruction to enter
is required.




But, thanks to all this debate BS, I at least now know that it may
not be clear cut. The next time I talk to the controllers at my
home base, I'll ask them.


What makes you think they'd know anything about it?



'Cause they control the class D around my home airport.

-------------------------------
Travis

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
link.net...

Oh, sure I have. Authorization to enter the class C is defined by two-way
radio communication lacking instructions to remain clear. The AIM
provides the simple phrase "Cessna 1234, standby" as an example
defining two-way radio communication.


Right, but you haven't explained why the aircraft cannot be required to
remain clear of Class C airspace.



There is no FAR or AIM description that says that once
a "remain clear" has been issued that a more explicit instruction to enter
is required.


There doesn't need to be. An instruction to remain clear is understood to
remain in effect until an instruction is issued that permits entry. That is
such a simple concept, how is it you cannot grasp it?



'Cause they control the class D around my home airport.


But we're talking about Class C airspace.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
link.net...

Oh, sure I have. Authorization to enter the class C is defined by
two-way
radio communication lacking instructions to remain clear. The AIM
provides the simple phrase "Cessna 1234, standby" as an example
defining two-way radio communication.


Right, but you haven't explained why the aircraft cannot be required to
remain clear of Class C airspace.



There is no FAR or AIM description that says that once
a "remain clear" has been issued that a more explicit instruction to
enter
is required.


There doesn't need to be. An instruction to remain clear is understood to
remain in effect until an instruction is issued that permits entry. That
is
such a simple concept, how is it you cannot grasp it?



'Cause they control the class D around my home airport.


But we're talking about Class C airspace.



Same requirements.
------------------------------
Travis

Howdy!

In article .net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
hlink.net...

Oh, sure I have. Authorization to enter the class C is defined by two-way
radio communication lacking instructions to remain clear. The AIM
provides the simple phrase "Cessna 1234, standby" as an example
defining two-way radio communication.


Right, but you haven't explained why the aircraft cannot be required to
remain clear of Class C airspace.

Non sequitur. I don't believe that anyone has asserted that ATC cannot
instruct one to remain clear of Class C airspace. What you contend,
without justification, is that that instruction, once givenn, must
be explicitly and overtly overriden with some sort of instruction --
examples of which are not found in the AIM, nor in any other official
source. You have failed to cite any authority for your assertion.


There is no FAR or AIM description that says that once
a "remain clear" has been issued that a more explicit instruction to enter
is required.


There doesn't need to be. An instruction to remain clear is understood to
remain in effect until an instruction is issued that permits entry. That is
such a simple concept, how is it you cannot grasp it?

91.130(c)1 defines how one is authorized to enter Class C airspace. You
then insist that once a communication using the tail number is made that
includes a "remain clear" instructionn, that instruction remains in force
in the face of subsequent communications such as "N1234, standby".

I posited a scenario that fits your conditions; you asserted that entry
would be permitted in my scenario -- a clear contradiction without an
explicit acknowledgement of such. You are allowed to change your story,
but you don't get to do so silently.



'Cause they control the class D around my home airport.


But we're talking about Class C airspace.

In the matter at hand, how do Class D and Class C airspace differ?

yours,
Michael


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