when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

Howdy!

In article .net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

...such as "November 1234, radar contact..."


An instruction is an authoritative direction to be obeyed. What part of
"November 1234, radar contact..." do you consider to be an instruction?

My bad. Your postulate was invalid. "November 1234, radar contact."
is not an instruction. It does, however, "establish two-way radio
communication" which authorizes entry into Class C airspace.
Entry into Class C airspace does not require affirmative instructions,
unlike Class B airspace which requires an affirmative clearance.
If ATC wants you to remain clear, they have to keep saying so if they
are going to communicate using your tail number.

yours,
Michael

--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

My bad. Your postulate was invalid. "November 1234, radar contact."
is not an instruction. It does, however, "establish two-way radio
communication" which authorizes entry into Class C airspace.


Negative. Communications are established only once per flight, that was
done with the first communications exchange.



Entry into Class C airspace does not require affirmative instructions,
unlike Class B airspace which requires an affirmative clearance.
If ATC wants you to remain clear, they have to keep saying so if they
are going to communicate using your tail number.


No. ATC only has to issue any given instruction once. It remains in effect
until overridden by another instruction or the original request is dropped.

Howdy!

In article k.net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

My bad. Your postulate was invalid. "November 1234, radar contact."
is not an instruction. It does, however, "establish two-way radio
communication" which authorizes entry into Class C airspace.


Negative. Communications are established only once per flight, that was
done with the first communications exchange.

How do you arrive at the interpretation? Please cite specific documents
that support your definition.

Entry into Class C airspace does not require affirmative instructions,
unlike Class B airspace which requires an affirmative clearance.
If ATC wants you to remain clear, they have to keep saying so if they
are going to communicate using your tail number.

No. ATC only has to issue any given instruction once. It remains in effect
until overridden by another instruction or the original request is dropped.

Oh? Consider this exchange:

N1234: Podunk center, N1234.

Podunk: N1234, go ahead.


Assuming that Podunk center controls a Class C airspace, that exchange
authorizes N1234 to enter. No request. Just communications. Suppose Podunk
had included a "remain clear of the Class C" instruction. How would N1234
"drop the original request"?


yours,
Michael
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

How do you arrive at the interpretation?


Because that's what "established" means, of course.



Please cite specific documents that support your definition.


I cite the dictionary.


es·tab·lish
tr.v. es·tab·lished, es·tab·lish·ing, es·tab·lish·es

1.
a. To set up; found.
b. To bring about; generate: establish goodwill in the neighborhood.

2.
a. To place or settle in a secure position or condition; install: They
established me in my own business.
b. To make firm or secure.

3. To cause to be recognized and accepted: a discovery that established
his reputation.

4. To introduce and put (a law, for example) into force.

5. To prove the validity or truth of: The defense attorneys established
the innocence of the accused.

6. To make a state institution of (a church).

Synonyms: found, create, institute, organize. These verbs mean to bring
something into existence and set it in operation: founded a colony; created
a trust fund; establishing a business; instituted an annual benefit concert;
organizing a field trip.


Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth
Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

established

Establish \Es*tab"lish\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Established; p. pr. & vb. n.
Establishing.] [OE. establissen, OF. establir, F. ['e]tablir, fr. L.
stabilire, fr. stabilis firm, steady, stable. See Stable, a., -ish, and cf.
Stablish.] 1. To make stable or firm; to fix immovably or firmly; to set (a
thing) in a place and make it stable there; to settle; to confirm.

So were the churches established in the faith. --Acts xvi. 5.

The best established tempers can scarcely forbear being borne down. --Burke.

Confidence which must precede union could be established only by consummate
prudence and self-control. --Bancroft.

2. To appoint or constitute for permanence, as officers, laws, regulations,
etc.; to enact; to ordain.

By the consent of all, we were established The people's magistrates. --Shak.

Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not
changed. --Dan. vi. 8.

3. To originate and secure the permanent existence of; to found; to
institute; to create and regulate; -- said of a colony, a state, or other
institutions.

He hath established it [the earth], he created it not in vain, he formed it
to be inhabited. --Is. xlv. 18.

Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and establisheth a city by
iniquity! --Hab. ii. 12.

4. To secure public recognition in favor of; to prove and cause to be
accepted as true; as, to establish a fact, usage, principle, opinion,
doctrine, etc.

At the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the
matter be established. --Deut. xix. 15.

5. To set up in business; to place advantageously in a fixed condition; --
used reflexively; as, he established himself in a place; the enemy
established themselves in the citadel.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

established

adj 1: brought about or set up or accepted; especially long established;
"the established social order"; "distrust of established authority"; "a team
established as a member of a major league"; "enjoyed his prestige as an
established writer"; "an established precedent"; "the established Church"
[ant: unestablished] 2: securely established; "an established reputation";
"holds a firm position as the country's leading poet" [syn: firm] 3: settled
securely and unconditionally; "that smoking causes health problems is an
accomplished fact" [syn: accomplished, effected] 4: conforming with accepted
standards; "a conventional view of the world" [syn: conventional] 5: shown
to be valid beyond a reasonable doubt; "the established facts in the case"
6: introduced from another region and persisting without cultivation [syn:
naturalized]

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University



Oh? Consider this exchange:

N1234: Podunk center, N1234.

Podunk: N1234, go ahead.


Assuming that Podunk center controls a Class C airspace, that exchange
authorizes N1234 to enter. No request. Just communications.


No Center controls Class C airspace in the US.



Suppose Podunk had included a "remain clear of the Class C"
instruction. How would N1234 "drop the original request"?


By saying something like, "never mind, Podunk, we'll just go around", or
just leaving the frequency and going around.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

Suppose Podunk had included a "remain clear of the Class C"
instruction. How would N1234 "drop the original request"?

By saying something like, "never mind, Podunk, we'll just go around", or
just leaving the frequency and going around.

Sounds just like what Arden (the original poster) did; after his initial
contact with ATC and being told to stay clear he stopped transmitting (left
the frequency), took off, and flew a course that avoided entering the Class
C. "So after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the
class C area that extended to the surface."

So by your words, we can assume the original request had then been dropped.
Later he said that "Well, the controller then called me by my tail number
and asked some questions ..." So a new communication was established which
therefore implicitly allows entrance to the Class C according to
the regulations that you and others have cited.

"Peter" wrote in message
news:iHz0c.152146$jk2.593189@attbi_s53...

Sounds just like what Arden (the original poster) did; after his initial
contact with ATC and being told to stay clear he stopped
transmitting (left the frequency), took off, and flew a course that
avoided entering the Class C. "So after I took of, I started flying a
route taking me around the class C area that extended to the surface."


No, Arden maintained communications with ATC after they were established.
He was on the frequency when the controller called him after departure.



So by your words, we can assume the original request had then
been dropped.


Not by my words. I suggest you review Arden's original message.



Later he said that "Well, the controller then called me by my tail number
and asked some questions ..." So a new communication was established
which therefore implicitly allows entrance to the Class C according to
the regulations that you and others have cited.


How is that a new communication?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message
news:iHz0c.152146$jk2.593189@attbi_s53...

Sounds just like what Arden (the original poster) did; after his initial
contact with ATC and being told to stay clear he stopped
transmitting (left the frequency), took off, and flew a course that
avoided entering the Class C. "So after I took of, I started flying a
route taking me around the class C area that extended to the surface."

No, Arden maintained communications with ATC after they were established.
He was on the frequency when the controller called him after departure.

No, he was receiving only, not actively on the frequency. No communication
on his part took place while he took off and started flying his route as
described. Presumably the controller was communicating with other pilots
during this period.

So by your words, we can assume the original request had then
been dropped.

Not by my words. I suggest you review Arden's original message.

I obviously did and quoted it as well. His description met all the
requirements you gave in the previous post.

Later he said that "Well, the controller then called me by my tail number
and asked some questions ..." So a new communication was established
which therefore implicitly allows entrance to the Class C according to
the regulations that you and others have cited.

How is that a new communication?

In exactly the same way that if I walk into a room and talk to you, then
walk around talking to various other people - or sit in a corner while you
talk to others, and then eventually come back to talk to you we would be
'establishing a new communication.'

The communication between Arden and the controller was not an ongoing one -
they said a few words then stopped talking to each other and did their
separate tasks for an extended period. When they again started talking to
each other it's a new communication.