when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...
Consider the following scenario.

You take off outside the Class C and would like to transit it. You are
instructed to remain clear. You circumnavigate it, reach your destination,
and return without landing. You again approach the Class C with the
desire to transit rather than go around. You call up ATC again and they
reply with your tail number but no instructions. Can you go in or not?



You can go in.



I'm positing on the order of an hour or more elapsing between the two
attempts to transit.



Right. It's a different flight, unrelated to the first.

What makes it a "different flight"? He didn't land in between, just flew
around for about an hour and came back. Would flying around for half an
hour and then returning be sufficient to make it a "different flight" and
thereby cancel the effects of the 'remain clear' instruction? How about 15
minutes? Doing a 360?

"Peter" wrote in message
news:yFAZb.365213$xy6.1918853@attbi_s02...

What makes it a "different flight"?


The first "flight" ended from ATC's perspective when the pilot dropped his
request for Class C services.

The first "flight" ended from ATC's perspective when the pilot dropped his
request for Class C services.


When did the pilot drop his request? The pilot said nothing cancelling his
request.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

When did the pilot drop his request?


From an ATC perspective, when he did not respond to the controller's
transmissions.



The pilot said nothing cancelling his request.


No, but when the pilot does not respond what else can the controller
conclude?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

When did the pilot drop his request?



From an ATC perspective, when he did not respond to the controller's
transmissions.



The pilot said nothing cancelling his request.



No, but when the pilot does not respond what else can the controller
conclude?


You seem to be assuming things that were never part of the stated scenario
- specifically that there were additional controller transmissions to the
pilot and that the pilot did not respond to them. Here was Michael's post
initiating this discussion:

"Consider the following scenario.

You take off outside the Class C and would like to transit it. You are
instructed to remain clear. You circumnavigate it, reach your destination,
and return without landing. You again approach the Class C with the
desire to transit rather than go around. You call up ATC again and they
reply with your tail number but no instructions. Can you go in or not?
I'm positing on the order of an hour or more elapsing between the two
attempts to transit."

"Peter" wrote in message
news:Ras%b.127906$jk2.539687@attbi_s53...

You seem to be assuming things that were never part of the stated
scenario - specifically that there were additional controller
transmissions to the pilot and that the pilot did not respond to them.


I just assume a real-world scenario, what else can I do?



Here was Michael's post initiating this discussion:

"Consider the following scenario.

You take off outside the Class C and would like to transit it. You are
instructed to remain clear. You circumnavigate it, reach your destination,
and return without landing. You again approach the Class C with the
desire to transit rather than go around. You call up ATC again and they
reply with your tail number but no instructions. Can you go in or not?
I'm positing on the order of an hour or more elapsing between the two
attempts to transit."


Right. The aircraft was instructed to remain clear. That's done when
workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C
services. If the controller didn't anticipate being able to provide those
services in a short time he wouldn't have established communications.

So a short time later the controller will call the aircraft again. If the
airplane responds, he will get the desired services.

The pilot said nothing cancelling his request.


No, but when the pilot does not respond what else can the controller
conclude?


That's the same reasoning that leads the pilot to think "when the controller
does not reiterate 'remain clear' when I establish communications again, what
else can the pilot conclude?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

That's the same reasoning that leads the pilot to think "when the
controller does not reiterate 'remain clear' when I establish
communications again, what else can the pilot conclude?


When you establish communications again? Communications are established
just once for any arrival or through flight, thereafter those communications
are maintained.

When you establish communications again? Communications are established
just once for any arrival or through flight, thereafter those communications
are maintained.


Well, if some time passes between one transmission and another, then
communications will need to be re-established. How much time? Well, we can
yak all day about that. Certanly if the first transmission is on the ground
before runup, and the next transmission is in the air, it would be reasonable
to conclude that we are no longer talking about "the same conversation", and
(as per the original scenario) he can enter the class C upon the new
establishment of communications.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Howdy!

In article k.net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Peter" wrote in message
news:yFAZb.365213$xy6.1918853@attbi_s02...

What makes it a "different flight"?


The first "flight" ended from ATC's perspective when the pilot dropped his
request for Class C services.

How, pray tell, does one do that? What is the correct phraseology?

Please cite chapter and verse.

yours,
Michael


--
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Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
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