when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

Hi Steven,

You've indicated that a "remain clear" stays in effect until ATC
issues a subsequent communication that permits or requires entry into
the class C airspace. This sounds reasonable. The real question is
knowing what communications permit or require entry into the class C
airspace and which ones do not so that when I'm in the air and hear a
communication I can know whether that communication suffices.

You wrote:
For the third or fourth time now, the controller would have to issue an
instruction that permitted or required entry into Class C airspace.
Examples are, "proceed on course", "fly heading XXX, vector for sequencing",
enter right base for runway XX", etc.

I'm not sure where you got this list.
Does "proceed on course" always permit entry, or does it depend upon
the relative positions of the airplane, class C airspace, and route of
flight? For example, if I'm headed away from the class C airspace
toward an intermediate waypoint and I hear the "proceed on course",
can I then go through the class C?

Thank-you!
Arden

Howdy!

In article ,
Arden Prinz wrote:
Hi Steven,

You've indicated that a "remain clear" stays in effect until ATC
issues a subsequent communication that permits or requires entry into
the class C airspace. This sounds reasonable. The real question is
knowing what communications permit or require entry into the class C
airspace and which ones do not so that when I'm in the air and hear a
communication I can know whether that communication suffices.

The ATC handbook (7110.65) includes:

7-8-4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS

Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio
communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller
responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio
communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C
airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision
of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C
airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

Thus, the sequence:

N1234: Podunk tower, N1234...rest of stuff in initial callup
Podunk: N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby.
N1234: Podunk tower, N1234.
Podunk: N1234, standby.

authorized entry. The second exchange did not instruct the pilot to
remain clear. Steve has insisted the contrary, and even claimed to
be a controller working Class C airspace, and claimed to reference
7110.65. I quote what I found on the FAA website. Steve has declined
to rebut with actual citations. His sudden silence on this matter
would seem to be a concession that perhaps he misspoke.

You wrote:
For the third or fourth time now, the controller would have to issue an
instruction that permitted or required entry into Class C airspace.
Examples are, "proceed on course", "fly heading XXX, vector for sequencing",
enter right base for runway XX", etc.

I'm not sure where you got this list.
Does "proceed on course" always permit entry, or does it depend upon
the relative positions of the airplane, class C airspace, and route of
flight? For example, if I'm headed away from the class C airspace
toward an intermediate waypoint and I hear the "proceed on course",
can I then go through the class C?

7110.65, the order prescribing air traffic control procedures and
phraseology for use by persons providing air traffic control services,
offers no special phraseology for the (hypothetical) instruction Steve
insists must be given.

At least, I can find no such reference in 7110.65P, the version that
took effect February 19, 2004.

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

The ATC handbook (7110.65) includes:

7-8-4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS

Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio
communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller
responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio
communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C
airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision
of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C
airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

Thus, the sequence:

N1234: Podunk tower, N1234...rest of stuff in initial callup
Podunk: N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby.
N1234: Podunk tower, N1234.
Podunk: N1234, standby.

authorized entry.


What led you to believe the phrase "Stand by" means "authorization to enter
Class C airspace is now granted"?



The second exchange did not instruct the pilot to
remain clear.


The second exchange included no instruction at all, the instruction to
remain outside Class C airspace was not altered in any way.



Steve has insisted the contrary,


Sure, that's just simple logic.



and even claimed to
be a controller working Class C airspace, and claimed to reference
7110.65. I quote what I found on the FAA website. Steve has declined
to rebut with actual citations. His sudden silence on this matter
would seem to be a concession that perhaps he misspoke.


Nope, Steve didn't misspeak. Steve is exactly correct.



7110.65, the order prescribing air traffic control procedures and
phraseology for use by persons providing air traffic control services,
offers no special phraseology for the (hypothetical) instruction Steve
insists must be given.


There are many things that FAAO 7110.65 does not say. For example, it does
not say that "stand by" or "radar contact" authorizes entry for an aircraft
that had previously been instructed to remain outside Class C airspace. Nor
does it say that not repeating the instruction to remain outside in every
subsequent exchange authorizes entry. Why do you suppose that is?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

The ATC handbook (7110.65) includes:

7-8-4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS

Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio
communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller
responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio
communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C
airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision
of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C
airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

Thus, the sequence:

N1234: Podunk tower, N1234...rest of stuff in initial callup
Podunk: N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby.
N1234: Podunk tower, N1234.
Podunk: N1234, standby.

authorized entry.



What led you to believe the phrase "Stand by" means "authorization to enter
Class C airspace is now granted"?


Not the "Stand by," but the "N1234, standby." And what might lead someone
to believe that is the direct quote from 7110.65, Sect. 7-8-4 above:
"If the controller responds to a radio call with, '(a/c call sign)
standby,' radio communications have been established and the pilot can
enter Class C airspace."

It also specifies that if the controller feels conditions at that time are
such that the aircraft should not enter Class C space he is to explicitly
state:
"PHRASEOLOGY-
(A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND STANDBY."

So based on my reading of the 7110.65 handbook it seems clear that if the
controller responds to a radio call with the a/c call sign but without the
explicit statement to "remain outside charlie airspace" then he has allowed
the pilot to proceed through the Class C airspace.

"Peter" wrote in message
news:bQC0c.155274$uV3.704538@attbi_s51...

Not the "Stand by," but the "N1234, standby."


Did you miss that the controller had already instructed N1234 to remain
outside Charlie airspace?



And what might lead someone
to believe that is the direct quote from 7110.65, Sect. 7-8-4 above:
"If the controller responds to a radio call with, '(a/c call sign)
standby,' radio communications have been established and the pilot can
enter Class C airspace."


Yes, but communications had already been established in this case. Once
you've been instructed to remain outside of Class C airspace you must
receive specific instruction that authorizes entry.



It also specifies that if the controller feels conditions at that time are
such that the aircraft should not enter Class C space he is to explicitly
state:
"PHRASEOLOGY-
(A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND
STANDBY."


Yes, and in this case the aircraft was instructed to remain outside when
communications was established.



So based on my reading of the 7110.65 handbook it seems clear that if
the controller responds to a radio call with the a/c call sign but without
the explicit statement to "remain outside charlie airspace" then he has
allowed the pilot to proceed through the Class C airspace.


Then you did not understand what you read.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news

"Peter" wrote in message
news:bQC0c.155274$uV3.704538@attbi_s51...

Not the "Stand by," but the "N1234, standby."


Did you miss that the controller had already instructed N1234 to remain
outside Charlie airspace?



And what might lead someone
to believe that is the direct quote from 7110.65, Sect. 7-8-4 above:
"If the controller responds to a radio call with, '(a/c call sign)
standby,' radio communications have been established and the pilot can
enter Class C airspace."


Yes, but communications had already been established in this case. Once
you've been instructed to remain outside of Class C airspace you must
receive specific instruction that authorizes entry.


Not exactly specific instructions. Since there is no such thing as a
clearance into class C airspace, we'll use the documented method which is to
"establish two-way radio communication." Something like "N1234, state your
intentions" from the controller will do.




It also specifies that if the controller feels conditions at that time
are
such that the aircraft should not enter Class C space he is to
explicitly
state:
"PHRASEOLOGY-
(A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND
STANDBY."


Yes, and in this case the aircraft was instructed to remain outside when
communications was established.

And then, when the controller has time to deal it, he calls up and says
"(A/c call sign) squawk 0541" or "(A/c call sign) where were you going?" or
any other question or piece of information with the aircraft's tail number
in it. Having heard this and responded, the pilot has authority to enter the
class C.




So based on my reading of the 7110.65 handbook it seems clear that if
the controller responds to a radio call with the a/c call sign but
without
the explicit statement to "remain outside charlie airspace" then he has
allowed the pilot to proceed through the Class C airspace.


Then you did not understand what you read.



Steven, I have a lot of respect for your opinion but I am having trouble
with your insistance that this is a cut and dried issue. You, me, and others
are quoting the same pieces of the regs and drawing opposite conclusions. It
is a simple question but the answer is just not clear from the regs.

Your responses that indicate that we are unable to interpret the regs
correctly or that we are not able to understand simple logic does not help
make your case. This has been a healthy debate between people who care
deeply about doing the right thing. Belittling our intelligence has no place
here.

None of the text quoted clearly supports your case - nor mine. Your claims
that simple logic dictates that an explicit clearance is required after a
"remain clear" has been issued are not sufficient.

I believe that you are an experienced controller. I believe that you will do
your job to the best of your ability. I hope that you will have patience
with me, if I ever approach your airspace and ask for clarification before
entering.
-------------------------------
Travis

Howdy!

Thanksfully, Steve left in enough context to make sense of his
nonsense reply.

In article k.net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

The ATC handbook (7110.65) includes:

7-8-4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS

Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio
communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller
responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio
communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C
airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision
of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C
airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

Thus, the sequence:

N1234: Podunk tower, N1234...rest of stuff in initial callup
Podunk: N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby.
N1234: Podunk tower, N1234.
Podunk: N1234, standby.

authorized entry.


What led you to believe the phrase "Stand by" means "authorization to enter
Class C airspace is now granted"?

Plain English comprehension.

7110.65P 7-8-4 says "If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(a/c
call sign) standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot
can enter Class C airspace." In my hypothetical sequence, N1234 made a radio
call and the controller responded using the specific exemplar provided in
the order. The phrase "...and the pilot can enter Class C airspace" is the
key. I'm astonished that you have a problem understanding this, given your
claim to be a controller.


The second exchange did not instruct the pilot to
remain clear.


The second exchange included no instruction at all, the instruction to
remain outside Class C airspace was not altered in any way.

No, it merely served to establish communications in a manner consistent
with FAAO 7110.65P and FAR 91.130(c)1 and the AIM.



Steve has insisted the contrary,


Sure, that's just simple logic.



and even claimed to
be a controller working Class C airspace, and claimed to reference
7110.65. I quote what I found on the FAA website. Steve has declined
to rebut with actual citations. His sudden silence on this matter
would seem to be a concession that perhaps he misspoke.


Nope, Steve didn't misspeak. Steve is exactly correct.

Steve still doesn't offer citations supporting his specific contention
that a "remain clear" instruction, once given, lasts until it is
explicitly countermanded, despite a complete absence of phraseology to
accomplish this in FAAO 7110.65.


7110.65, the order prescribing air traffic control procedures and
phraseology for use by persons providing air traffic control services,
offers no special phraseology for the (hypothetical) instruction Steve
insists must be given.


There are many things that FAAO 7110.65 does not say. For example, it does
not say that "stand by" or "radar contact" authorizes entry for an aircraft
that had previously been instructed to remain outside Class C airspace. Nor
does it say that not repeating the instruction to remain outside in every
subsequent exchange authorizes entry. Why do you suppose that is?

Because what it actually says doesn't mean what you keep insisting it means.


yours,
Michael
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...

You've indicated that a "remain clear" stays in effect until ATC
issues a subsequent communication that permits or requires entry into
the class C airspace. This sounds reasonable. The real question is
knowing what communications permit or require entry into the class C
airspace and which ones do not so that when I'm in the air and hear a
communication I can know whether that communication suffices.


Any instruction where compliance permits or requires entry to the Class C
airspace.



I'm not sure where you got this list.


I wrote it.



Does "proceed on course" always permit entry, or does it depend upon
the relative positions of the airplane, class C airspace, and route of
flight?


If the controller knows your desired course and your desired course transits
Class C airspace and he tells you to "proceed on course" then "proceed on
course" permits entry. If the controller doesn't know your desired course
and he tells you to "proceed on course" then "proceed on course" permits
entry.



For example, if I'm headed away from the class C airspace
toward an intermediate waypoint and I hear the "proceed on course",
can I then go through the class C?


If a controller isn't aware of your course but still tells you to "proceed
on course" it means he has determined you can safely enter Class C airspace
on any course. But why would you go out of your way to enter Class C
airspace?