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Hi Steven,
You've indicated that a "remain clear" stays in effect until ATC issues a subsequent communication that permits or requires entry into the class C airspace. This sounds reasonable. The real question is knowing what communications permit or require entry into the class C airspace and which ones do not so that when I'm in the air and hear a communication I can know whether that communication suffices. You wrote: For the third or fourth time now, the controller would have to issue an instruction that permitted or required entry into Class C airspace. Examples are, "proceed on course", "fly heading XXX, vector for sequencing", enter right base for runway XX", etc. I'm not sure where you got this list. Does "proceed on course" always permit entry, or does it depend upon the relative positions of the airplane, class C airspace, and route of flight? For example, if I'm headed away from the class C airspace toward an intermediate waypoint and I hear the "proceed on course", can I then go through the class C? Thank-you! Arden |
#2
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Howdy!
In article , Arden Prinz wrote: Hi Steven, You've indicated that a "remain clear" stays in effect until ATC issues a subsequent communication that permits or requires entry into the class C airspace. This sounds reasonable. The real question is knowing what communications permit or require entry into the class C airspace and which ones do not so that when I'm in the air and hear a communication I can know whether that communication suffices. The ATC handbook (7110.65) includes: 7-8-4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided. Thus, the sequence: N1234: Podunk tower, N1234...rest of stuff in initial callup Podunk: N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby. N1234: Podunk tower, N1234. Podunk: N1234, standby. authorized entry. The second exchange did not instruct the pilot to remain clear. Steve has insisted the contrary, and even claimed to be a controller working Class C airspace, and claimed to reference 7110.65. I quote what I found on the FAA website. Steve has declined to rebut with actual citations. His sudden silence on this matter would seem to be a concession that perhaps he misspoke. You wrote: For the third or fourth time now, the controller would have to issue an instruction that permitted or required entry into Class C airspace. Examples are, "proceed on course", "fly heading XXX, vector for sequencing", enter right base for runway XX", etc. I'm not sure where you got this list. Does "proceed on course" always permit entry, or does it depend upon the relative positions of the airplane, class C airspace, and route of flight? For example, if I'm headed away from the class C airspace toward an intermediate waypoint and I hear the "proceed on course", can I then go through the class C? 7110.65, the order prescribing air traffic control procedures and phraseology for use by persons providing air traffic control services, offers no special phraseology for the (hypothetical) instruction Steve insists must be given. At least, I can find no such reference in 7110.65P, the version that took effect February 19, 2004. yours, Michael -- Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly | White Wolf and the Phoenix Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/ |
#3
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![]() "Michael Houghton" wrote in message ... The ATC handbook (7110.65) includes: 7-8-4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided. Thus, the sequence: N1234: Podunk tower, N1234...rest of stuff in initial callup Podunk: N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby. N1234: Podunk tower, N1234. Podunk: N1234, standby. authorized entry. What led you to believe the phrase "Stand by" means "authorization to enter Class C airspace is now granted"? The second exchange did not instruct the pilot to remain clear. The second exchange included no instruction at all, the instruction to remain outside Class C airspace was not altered in any way. Steve has insisted the contrary, Sure, that's just simple logic. and even claimed to be a controller working Class C airspace, and claimed to reference 7110.65. I quote what I found on the FAA website. Steve has declined to rebut with actual citations. His sudden silence on this matter would seem to be a concession that perhaps he misspoke. Nope, Steve didn't misspeak. Steve is exactly correct. 7110.65, the order prescribing air traffic control procedures and phraseology for use by persons providing air traffic control services, offers no special phraseology for the (hypothetical) instruction Steve insists must be given. There are many things that FAAO 7110.65 does not say. For example, it does not say that "stand by" or "radar contact" authorizes entry for an aircraft that had previously been instructed to remain outside Class C airspace. Nor does it say that not repeating the instruction to remain outside in every subsequent exchange authorizes entry. Why do you suppose that is? |
#4
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Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Michael Houghton" wrote in message ... The ATC handbook (7110.65) includes: 7-8-4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided. Thus, the sequence: N1234: Podunk tower, N1234...rest of stuff in initial callup Podunk: N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby. N1234: Podunk tower, N1234. Podunk: N1234, standby. authorized entry. What led you to believe the phrase "Stand by" means "authorization to enter Class C airspace is now granted"? Not the "Stand by," but the "N1234, standby." And what might lead someone to believe that is the direct quote from 7110.65, Sect. 7-8-4 above: "If the controller responds to a radio call with, '(a/c call sign) standby,' radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C airspace." It also specifies that if the controller feels conditions at that time are such that the aircraft should not enter Class C space he is to explicitly state: "PHRASEOLOGY- (A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND STANDBY." So based on my reading of the 7110.65 handbook it seems clear that if the controller responds to a radio call with the a/c call sign but without the explicit statement to "remain outside charlie airspace" then he has allowed the pilot to proceed through the Class C airspace. |
#5
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![]() "Peter" wrote in message news:bQC0c.155274$uV3.704538@attbi_s51... Not the "Stand by," but the "N1234, standby." Did you miss that the controller had already instructed N1234 to remain outside Charlie airspace? And what might lead someone to believe that is the direct quote from 7110.65, Sect. 7-8-4 above: "If the controller responds to a radio call with, '(a/c call sign) standby,' radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C airspace." Yes, but communications had already been established in this case. Once you've been instructed to remain outside of Class C airspace you must receive specific instruction that authorizes entry. It also specifies that if the controller feels conditions at that time are such that the aircraft should not enter Class C space he is to explicitly state: "PHRASEOLOGY- (A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND STANDBY." Yes, and in this case the aircraft was instructed to remain outside when communications was established. So based on my reading of the 7110.65 handbook it seems clear that if the controller responds to a radio call with the a/c call sign but without the explicit statement to "remain outside charlie airspace" then he has allowed the pilot to proceed through the Class C airspace. Then you did not understand what you read. |
#6
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news ![]() "Peter" wrote in message news:bQC0c.155274$uV3.704538@attbi_s51... Not the "Stand by," but the "N1234, standby." Did you miss that the controller had already instructed N1234 to remain outside Charlie airspace? And what might lead someone to believe that is the direct quote from 7110.65, Sect. 7-8-4 above: "If the controller responds to a radio call with, '(a/c call sign) standby,' radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C airspace." Yes, but communications had already been established in this case. Once you've been instructed to remain outside of Class C airspace you must receive specific instruction that authorizes entry. Not exactly specific instructions. Since there is no such thing as a clearance into class C airspace, we'll use the documented method which is to "establish two-way radio communication." Something like "N1234, state your intentions" from the controller will do. It also specifies that if the controller feels conditions at that time are such that the aircraft should not enter Class C space he is to explicitly state: "PHRASEOLOGY- (A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND STANDBY." Yes, and in this case the aircraft was instructed to remain outside when communications was established. And then, when the controller has time to deal it, he calls up and says "(A/c call sign) squawk 0541" or "(A/c call sign) where were you going?" or any other question or piece of information with the aircraft's tail number in it. Having heard this and responded, the pilot has authority to enter the class C. So based on my reading of the 7110.65 handbook it seems clear that if the controller responds to a radio call with the a/c call sign but without the explicit statement to "remain outside charlie airspace" then he has allowed the pilot to proceed through the Class C airspace. Then you did not understand what you read. Steven, I have a lot of respect for your opinion but I am having trouble with your insistance that this is a cut and dried issue. You, me, and others are quoting the same pieces of the regs and drawing opposite conclusions. It is a simple question but the answer is just not clear from the regs. Your responses that indicate that we are unable to interpret the regs correctly or that we are not able to understand simple logic does not help make your case. This has been a healthy debate between people who care deeply about doing the right thing. Belittling our intelligence has no place here. None of the text quoted clearly supports your case - nor mine. Your claims that simple logic dictates that an explicit clearance is required after a "remain clear" has been issued are not sufficient. I believe that you are an experienced controller. I believe that you will do your job to the best of your ability. I hope that you will have patience with me, if I ever approach your airspace and ask for clarification before entering. ------------------------------- Travis |
#7
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Howdy!
Thanksfully, Steve left in enough context to make sense of his nonsense reply. In article k.net, Steven P. McNicoll wrote: "Michael Houghton" wrote in message ... The ATC handbook (7110.65) includes: 7-8-4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided. Thus, the sequence: N1234: Podunk tower, N1234...rest of stuff in initial callup Podunk: N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby. N1234: Podunk tower, N1234. Podunk: N1234, standby. authorized entry. What led you to believe the phrase "Stand by" means "authorization to enter Class C airspace is now granted"? Plain English comprehension. 7110.65P 7-8-4 says "If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C airspace." In my hypothetical sequence, N1234 made a radio call and the controller responded using the specific exemplar provided in the order. The phrase "...and the pilot can enter Class C airspace" is the key. I'm astonished that you have a problem understanding this, given your claim to be a controller. The second exchange did not instruct the pilot to remain clear. The second exchange included no instruction at all, the instruction to remain outside Class C airspace was not altered in any way. No, it merely served to establish communications in a manner consistent with FAAO 7110.65P and FAR 91.130(c)1 and the AIM. Steve has insisted the contrary, Sure, that's just simple logic. and even claimed to be a controller working Class C airspace, and claimed to reference 7110.65. I quote what I found on the FAA website. Steve has declined to rebut with actual citations. His sudden silence on this matter would seem to be a concession that perhaps he misspoke. Nope, Steve didn't misspeak. Steve is exactly correct. Steve still doesn't offer citations supporting his specific contention that a "remain clear" instruction, once given, lasts until it is explicitly countermanded, despite a complete absence of phraseology to accomplish this in FAAO 7110.65. 7110.65, the order prescribing air traffic control procedures and phraseology for use by persons providing air traffic control services, offers no special phraseology for the (hypothetical) instruction Steve insists must be given. There are many things that FAAO 7110.65 does not say. For example, it does not say that "stand by" or "radar contact" authorizes entry for an aircraft that had previously been instructed to remain outside Class C airspace. Nor does it say that not repeating the instruction to remain outside in every subsequent exchange authorizes entry. Why do you suppose that is? Because what it actually says doesn't mean what you keep insisting it means. yours, Michael -- Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly | White Wolf and the Phoenix Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/ |
#8
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![]() "Arden Prinz" wrote in message om... You've indicated that a "remain clear" stays in effect until ATC issues a subsequent communication that permits or requires entry into the class C airspace. This sounds reasonable. The real question is knowing what communications permit or require entry into the class C airspace and which ones do not so that when I'm in the air and hear a communication I can know whether that communication suffices. Any instruction where compliance permits or requires entry to the Class C airspace. I'm not sure where you got this list. I wrote it. Does "proceed on course" always permit entry, or does it depend upon the relative positions of the airplane, class C airspace, and route of flight? If the controller knows your desired course and your desired course transits Class C airspace and he tells you to "proceed on course" then "proceed on course" permits entry. If the controller doesn't know your desired course and he tells you to "proceed on course" then "proceed on course" permits entry. For example, if I'm headed away from the class C airspace toward an intermediate waypoint and I hear the "proceed on course", can I then go through the class C? If a controller isn't aware of your course but still tells you to "proceed on course" it means he has determined you can safely enter Class C airspace on any course. But why would you go out of your way to enter Class C airspace? |
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