Skyguide traffic controller killed

Dean Wilkinson wrote:

That is very rude of you to call the investigation team idiots,

You obviously missed the question mark and the irony it implied.

The investigators are required to follow a rigorous investigation
process, no matter how clear cut a case may be. That takes a lot of
time.

Hmmm... Wasn't it you that claimed that reading the preliminary finding
was enough to have a full understanding of the case?

Stefan

Stefan wrote:

The investigators are required to follow a rigorous investigation
process, no matter how clear cut a case may be. That takes a lot of
time.

Hmmm... Wasn't it you that claimed that reading the preliminary finding
was enough to have a full understanding of the case?

Yes, and what he's saying here is that a process must be followed, even if it's
just a waste of time.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

Nope, never said such a thing. All I said was that it was clear that
the controller had screwed up... do you dispute that?

Stefan wrote in message ...
Dean Wilkinson wrote:

That is very rude of you to call the investigation team idiots,

You obviously missed the question mark and the irony it implied.

The investigators are required to follow a rigorous investigation
process, no matter how clear cut a case may be. That takes a lot of
time.

Hmmm... Wasn't it you that claimed that reading the preliminary finding
was enough to have a full understanding of the case?

Stefan

Dean Wilkinson wrote:

Nope, never said such a thing. All I said was that it was clear that
the controller had screwed up... do you dispute that?

Yes. Nothing is clear before I've read the full report.

Stefan

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Dean Wilkinson wrote:

Nope, never said such a thing. All I said was that it was clear that
the controller had screwed up... do you dispute that?

Yes. Nothing is clear before I've read the full report.


In fact, the controller has not even been killed until the police finish
their report, right Stefan?

In fact, the controller has not even been killed until the police finish
their report, right Stefan?

LOL, very funny C.J.

Now, just so nobody misunderstands me, just because I believe that the
controller made a mistake, I do not believe that the controller
deserved to be stabbed to death. I also believe that the Captain of
the Russian flight made a mistake as well, and he should have listened
to his first officer who kept pointing out that the TCAS system said
climb.

The controller was put in a difficult situation by his employer,
Skyguide. The Russians could benefit from better training in the TCAS
system and better Crew Resource Management.

I think that this case is a good example of why privatizing air
traffic control in the U.S.A. is a bad idea. When safety takes a back
seat to cost controls and profit margins, people die.

Dean Wilkinson

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Dean Wilkinson wrote:

Nope, never said such a thing. All I said was that it was clear that
the controller had screwed up... do you dispute that?

Yes. Nothing is clear before I've read the full report.


In fact, the controller has not even been killed until the police finish
their report, right Stefan?

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Dean Wilkinson wrote:


I think that this case is a good example of why privatizing air
traffic control in the U.S.A. is a bad idea. When safety takes a back
seat to cost controls and profit margins, people die.

What makes you think eliminating the profit issue - that is, leaving ATC in
government hands - would address the type of problem that occurred at
Skyguide? Having recently read the final report on a midair near KCDW a
while back, I can tell you: Federal Towers leave a single overworked
controller alone too.

- Andrew

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Well, first of all this was a center controller, not a tower
controller. I don't believe that center controllers work alone in the
U.S., if they do I would be surprised. Secondly, their phone system
was offline and their conflict warning system was down... what, no
money for backup systems? Would that happen in the U.S.? I sure hope
not...

Andrew Gideon wrote in message gonline.com...
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Dean Wilkinson wrote:


I think that this case is a good example of why privatizing air
traffic control in the U.S.A. is a bad idea. When safety takes a back
seat to cost controls and profit margins, people die.

What makes you think eliminating the profit issue - that is, leaving ATC in
government hands - would address the type of problem that occurred at
Skyguide? Having recently read the final report on a midair near KCDW a
while back, I can tell you: Federal Towers leave a single overworked
controller alone too.

- Andrew

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Andrew Gideon wrote in message gonline.com...

Dean Wilkinson wrote:
I think that this case is a good example of why privatizing air
traffic control in the U.S.A. is a bad idea. When safety takes a back
seat to cost controls and profit margins, people die.

What makes you think eliminating the profit issue - that is, leaving ATC in
government hands - would address the type of problem that occurred at
Skyguide? Having recently read the final report on a midair near KCDW a
while back, I can tell you: Federal Towers leave a single overworked
controller alone too.

Andrew,

The problem is, I'm not sure that leaving ATC in government hands
"eliminates the profit issue" exactly. Or at least, while it's
not exactly a profit issue, I'm not so sure but that safety is
taking a back seat to cost controls, with complications from
ponderous Federal hiring and relocation rules. For example, I
understand that some unGodly large fraction of the Chicago TRACON
controllers are due to retire PDQ but trainees are in very short
supply, because overall staffing is defined as "adequate" -- which
I suppose means more desireable positions are fully or overstaffed,
and management is oversupplied, but due to budgetary limitations
on hiring or relocating, bodies can't be put where they're really
needed.

Just what I've heard -- NB that I'm not an ATCS for which the world
can be duly thankful.

Cheers,
Sydney

C J Campbell wrote:

In fact, the controller has not even been killed until the police finish
their report, right Stefan?

Actually, yes. That's how the legl system works here, and it does so for
good. There are libraries full of cases of people who innocently spent
years in prison or even have been executed and found to have been
unguilty later. Oh, and how was that with the "obvious" and "very clear"
fact that Iraq had WMDs? (Not to start a discussion about Iraq, please!)

So just let's wait what the final report will find.

Stefan