when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

When did the pilot drop his request?


From an ATC perspective, when he did not respond to the controller's
transmissions.



The pilot said nothing cancelling his request.


No, but when the pilot does not respond what else can the controller
conclude?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

When did the pilot drop his request?



From an ATC perspective, when he did not respond to the controller's
transmissions.



The pilot said nothing cancelling his request.



No, but when the pilot does not respond what else can the controller
conclude?


You seem to be assuming things that were never part of the stated scenario
- specifically that there were additional controller transmissions to the
pilot and that the pilot did not respond to them. Here was Michael's post
initiating this discussion:

"Consider the following scenario.

You take off outside the Class C and would like to transit it. You are
instructed to remain clear. You circumnavigate it, reach your destination,
and return without landing. You again approach the Class C with the
desire to transit rather than go around. You call up ATC again and they
reply with your tail number but no instructions. Can you go in or not?
I'm positing on the order of an hour or more elapsing between the two
attempts to transit."

"Peter" wrote in message
news:Ras%b.127906$jk2.539687@attbi_s53...

You seem to be assuming things that were never part of the stated
scenario - specifically that there were additional controller
transmissions to the pilot and that the pilot did not respond to them.


I just assume a real-world scenario, what else can I do?



Here was Michael's post initiating this discussion:

"Consider the following scenario.

You take off outside the Class C and would like to transit it. You are
instructed to remain clear. You circumnavigate it, reach your destination,
and return without landing. You again approach the Class C with the
desire to transit rather than go around. You call up ATC again and they
reply with your tail number but no instructions. Can you go in or not?
I'm positing on the order of an hour or more elapsing between the two
attempts to transit."


Right. The aircraft was instructed to remain clear. That's done when
workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C
services. If the controller didn't anticipate being able to provide those
services in a short time he wouldn't have established communications.

So a short time later the controller will call the aircraft again. If the
airplane responds, he will get the desired services.

The pilot said nothing cancelling his request.


No, but when the pilot does not respond what else can the controller
conclude?


That's the same reasoning that leads the pilot to think "when the controller
does not reiterate 'remain clear' when I establish communications again, what
else can the pilot conclude?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

That's the same reasoning that leads the pilot to think "when the
controller does not reiterate 'remain clear' when I establish
communications again, what else can the pilot conclude?


When you establish communications again? Communications are established
just once for any arrival or through flight, thereafter those communications
are maintained.

When you establish communications again? Communications are established
just once for any arrival or through flight, thereafter those communications
are maintained.


Well, if some time passes between one transmission and another, then
communications will need to be re-established. How much time? Well, we can
yak all day about that. Certanly if the first transmission is on the ground
before runup, and the next transmission is in the air, it would be reasonable
to conclude that we are no longer talking about "the same conversation", and
(as per the original scenario) he can enter the class C upon the new
establishment of communications.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Well, if some time passes between one transmission and another, then
communications will need to be re-established.


Why?



How much time? Well, we can yak all day about that. Certanly
if the first transmission is on the ground before runup, and the next
transmission is in the air, it would be reasonable to conclude that
we are no longer talking about "the same conversation", and (as
per the original scenario) he can enter the class C upon the new
establishment of communications.


But that's not per the original scenario.

Let's say communications have been established and you're transiting Class C
airspace. The controller has spoken with several other aircraft, but hasn't
spoken with you since communications were established. At what point are
you no longer maintaining communications and thus in violation of FAR
91.130(c)(1)?

Well, if some time passes between one transmission and another, then
communications will need to be re-established.


Why?


Because if "enough" time passes, the controller will die and be replaced by a
machine.

hmmph

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Because if "enough" time passes, the controller will die and be
replaced by a machine.


Class C airspace is 20 miles in diameter at most. How much time is required
for a typical piston single to transit that distance?

Sounds like you guys might be running out of things to argue about, so let
me give you something new.

Steven asked: "Let's say communications have been established and you're
transiting Class C airspace. The controller has spoken with several other
aircraft, but hasn't spoken with you since communications were established.
At what point are you no longer maintaining communications and thus in
violation of FAR 91.130(c)(1)?"

Remember that the controller's initial response to the pilot's first call
is: "PODUNK1234, Standby." The key is "standby". In radio-eze this statement
means: "I am aware of your presence, stay on this frequency and monitor for
any communications from me (controller)." Note that this does not preclude
communications initiated by the pilot.

So, communications are "maintained" until they are specifically ended. Under
normal circumstances, this will involve the controller advising the pilot
that he is leaving the controller's airspace and that a frequency change is
approved. At this point communications are explicitly ended.

Don't remember where I read this, probably one of the flying magazines, so I
won't be supplying any cites.

Have fun!


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Well, if some time passes between one transmission and another, then
communications will need to be re-established.


Why?



How much time? Well, we can yak all day about that. Certanly
if the first transmission is on the ground before runup, and the next
transmission is in the air, it would be reasonable to conclude that
we are no longer talking about "the same conversation", and (as
per the original scenario) he can enter the class C upon the new
establishment of communications.


But that's not per the original scenario.

Let's say communications have been established and you're transiting Class
C
airspace. The controller has spoken with several other aircraft, but
hasn't
spoken with you since communications were established. At what point are
you no longer maintaining communications and thus in violation of FAR
91.130(c)(1)?