My first hour in a complex aircraft, the Beech V35B

Dennis O'Connor ) wrote:

Full stall landings are what you should be doing...

Interesting that most of you commented on this, which is what I was hoping
would happen. I always strive for full stall landings in the C172,
too, so receiving an earful about the stall warning horn going off from the
previous owner shook me up a little.

His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

I will definitely talk with my "transition" instructor about this.


--
Peter












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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:21 -0500, Peter R.
wrote:

Dennis O'Connor ) wrote:

Full stall landings are what you should be doing...

Interesting that most of you commented on this, which is what I was hoping
would happen. I always strive for full stall landings in the C172,
too, so receiving an earful about the stall warning horn going off from the
previous owner shook me up a little.

His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

Actually the Bo won't do that, at least not if it's in ground effect.
To get it to stall usually takes a "relatively" nose high attitude.
When it stalls onto the runway "from a normal height" the nose does
not drop at all. It stays put and the mains drop down which is kind
of a strange sensation at first. Sorta feels like over rotation and
you'll get to see that on soft field take offs. It you don't hold
the nose there, it will just settle onto the mains while staying in
the same attitude. The Bo has tremendous elevator authority and you
can keep the nose gear off down to.. as I guess I'd say, 30 or 40
MPH.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

I will definitely talk with my "transition" instructor about this.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:23:51 GMT, Roger Halstead
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:21 -0500, Peter R.
wrote:


His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

Actually the Bo won't do that, at least not if it's in ground effect.
To get it to stall usually takes a "relatively" nose high attitude.
When it stalls onto the runway "from a normal height" the nose does
not drop at all. It stays put and the mains drop down which is kind
of a strange sensation at first.

Because the typical Bonanza's cg has shifted to the rear on fuel burn?
If the worry isn't that it won't pound the nose on landing, then you
really need to watch that airspeed turning final. It won't go
nose-down when you really need it to. But its been stated that most
pilots land it hot anyway. Seems there's a legit reason for it.

Or have I missed something in this thread?

Mike

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:20:28 -0600, Mike Rhodes
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:23:51 GMT, Roger Halstead
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:21 -0500, Peter R.
wrote:


His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

Actually the Bo won't do that, at least not if it's in ground effect.
To get it to stall usually takes a "relatively" nose high attitude.
When it stalls onto the runway "from a normal height" the nose does
not drop at all. It stays put and the mains drop down which is kind
of a strange sensation at first.

Because the typical Bonanza's cg has shifted to the rear on fuel burn?

No.
If you do your W&B calcs it's not a problem. The older Bo "Prior to
74 only had 1000# useful load and the CG shift isn't a problem like
the more recent models. However in either case it's not due to a CG
shift. When within the CG a Bo stalled "In Ground Effect" does not
drop the nose. I can load mine with 100 gallons (30 in the tip tanks,
50 mains, and 20 in the aux) and never have to worry about it going
out of CG) if I start in the middle.

If the worry isn't that it won't pound the nose on landing, then you
really need to watch that airspeed turning final. It won't go

You always need to watch the speed of any airplane.

nose-down when you really need it to. But its been stated that most

It will go nose down if you want it too, but why would you want it to
drop the nose. Speed and power = attitude. IF the airspeed indicator
goes out, you know that so many inches of MP and so many degrees up on
the AI are still going to get you where you want to go. With the
power set you rarely have to look at the instruments if you know what
it's supposed to look like outside.

When I land, I do full stall landings and I keep the nose in the air
until I no longer have enough elevator authority to keep it there and
that is down around 30 to 40 MPH which is well after touch down.
(Stall with me alone and half fuel is only 55 MPH) That would make
the last part of final at 71 MPH which is one steep descent.

pilots land it hot anyway. Seems there's a legit reason for it.

Pure baloney.
The Airsafety Foundation and American Bonanza Society teach the pilots
to fly "by the numbers" and that means sticking to the book figures.
They require every pilot taking their pilot proficiency course to
calculate the speed for each landing and take off and they expect to
see you fly it. They do not want to see pilots adding 5 for the wife
and another for the kids and maybe an extra 10 for comfort. They are
very adamant about excess speed on landing being a killer

If need be I can quote right from the ABS/ASF Pilot Proficiency
Training Manual as to their requirements. That class runs 10 hours of
class room and 4 to 5 hours of flight time.

There is no problem bringing in a Bo at 1.3 Vso in calm conditions. If
the winds kick up, add half the gust factor. The Bo is a very good
short field airplane for those who learn how to handle them.


Or have I missed something in this thread?

Could be?
According to the ABS the big problem is pilots who make their own
rules and add a bit of speed instead of following the POH.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Mike

Roger Halstead wrote:

The Airsafety Foundation and American Bonanza Society teach the pilots
to fly "by the numbers" and that means sticking to the book figures.
They require every pilot taking their pilot proficiency course to
calculate the speed for each landing and take off and they expect to
see you fly it. They do not want to see pilots adding 5 for the wife
and another for the kids and maybe an extra 10 for comfort. They are
very adamant about excess speed on landing being a killer

As always, Roger, your posts are very informative.

The ABS's pilot proficiency course schedule did not go out past spring,
but it looks like they routinely hold a course in a city not too far
from where I am based.

Acting on the advice of you and others in this group, I plan on
attending one of these courses by early summer.

--
Peter







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On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:59:58 -0500, Peter R.
wrote:

Roger Halstead wrote:

The Airsafety Foundation and American Bonanza Society teach the pilots
to fly "by the numbers" and that means sticking to the book figures.
They require every pilot taking their pilot proficiency course to
calculate the speed for each landing and take off and they expect to
see you fly it. They do not want to see pilots adding 5 for the wife
and another for the kids and maybe an extra 10 for comfort. They are
very adamant about excess speed on landing being a killer

As always, Roger, your posts are very informative.


Thanks, I appreciate that.

If you are a member of the ABS http://www.bonanza.org/ has the BPPP
schedule for the training and clinics.

The ABS's pilot proficiency course schedule did not go out past spring,
but it looks like they routinely hold a course in a city not too far
from where I am based.

Acting on the advice of you and others in this group, I plan on
attending one of these courses by early summer.

It is certainly worth the effort. Usually two days of intensive class
room and flying. The instructors specialize in the Beech line and you
will pick up lots of pointers. In class you will probably find out a
lot of information on the Bo you wont hear any where else.

At Port Columbus I heard one radio transmission from an airliner
asking, "Where on earth did all these Bonanzas come from?"

We even had one Doctor and his son who had gone out and purchased a
new A36 in which they did their primary flight training. Now that is
learning in class. :-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com