when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

When you establish communications again? Communications are established
just once for any arrival or through flight, thereafter those communications
are maintained.


Well, if some time passes between one transmission and another, then
communications will need to be re-established. How much time? Well, we can
yak all day about that. Certanly if the first transmission is on the ground
before runup, and the next transmission is in the air, it would be reasonable
to conclude that we are no longer talking about "the same conversation", and
(as per the original scenario) he can enter the class C upon the new
establishment of communications.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Well, if some time passes between one transmission and another, then
communications will need to be re-established.


Why?



How much time? Well, we can yak all day about that. Certanly
if the first transmission is on the ground before runup, and the next
transmission is in the air, it would be reasonable to conclude that
we are no longer talking about "the same conversation", and (as
per the original scenario) he can enter the class C upon the new
establishment of communications.


But that's not per the original scenario.

Let's say communications have been established and you're transiting Class C
airspace. The controller has spoken with several other aircraft, but hasn't
spoken with you since communications were established. At what point are
you no longer maintaining communications and thus in violation of FAR
91.130(c)(1)?

Well, if some time passes between one transmission and another, then
communications will need to be re-established.


Why?


Because if "enough" time passes, the controller will die and be replaced by a
machine.

hmmph

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Because if "enough" time passes, the controller will die and be
replaced by a machine.


Class C airspace is 20 miles in diameter at most. How much time is required
for a typical piston single to transit that distance?

Class C airspace is 20 miles in diameter at most. How much time is required
for a typical piston single to transit that distance?


Four and a half hours. After that, he may run out of fuel. The pilot might be
able to hold out for six or seven, depending on tanks and power settings.

The pilot is not required to transit in a straight line. The controller is not
required to intercede if the pilot is circling inside the ring. The pilot is
not required to inform the controller (unless asked) of his routing. The
controller is not required to ask.

Pilot takes off, calls the controller and is told to remain clear. Pilot
circles the outer ring for four hours and fifteen minutes. Pilot calls again
and the controller responds with:

N1234 stand by.

Can he enter?

What if he landed and took off again sometime in those last four hours.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Sounds like you guys might be running out of things to argue about, so let
me give you something new.

Steven asked: "Let's say communications have been established and you're
transiting Class C airspace. The controller has spoken with several other
aircraft, but hasn't spoken with you since communications were established.
At what point are you no longer maintaining communications and thus in
violation of FAR 91.130(c)(1)?"

Remember that the controller's initial response to the pilot's first call
is: "PODUNK1234, Standby." The key is "standby". In radio-eze this statement
means: "I am aware of your presence, stay on this frequency and monitor for
any communications from me (controller)." Note that this does not preclude
communications initiated by the pilot.

So, communications are "maintained" until they are specifically ended. Under
normal circumstances, this will involve the controller advising the pilot
that he is leaving the controller's airspace and that a frequency change is
approved. At this point communications are explicitly ended.

Don't remember where I read this, probably one of the flying magazines, so I
won't be supplying any cites.

Have fun!


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Well, if some time passes between one transmission and another, then
communications will need to be re-established.


Why?



How much time? Well, we can yak all day about that. Certanly
if the first transmission is on the ground before runup, and the next
transmission is in the air, it would be reasonable to conclude that
we are no longer talking about "the same conversation", and (as
per the original scenario) he can enter the class C upon the new
establishment of communications.


But that's not per the original scenario.

Let's say communications have been established and you're transiting Class
C
airspace. The controller has spoken with several other aircraft, but
hasn't
spoken with you since communications were established. At what point are
you no longer maintaining communications and thus in violation of FAR
91.130(c)(1)?

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

Sounds like you guys might be running out of things to argue about, so let
me give you something new.


There is nothing new. I'ne covered everything.



Steven asked: "Let's say communications have been established and you're
transiting Class C airspace. The controller has spoken with several other
aircraft, but hasn't spoken with you since communications were
established.
At what point are you no longer maintaining communications and thus in
violation of FAR 91.130(c)(1)?"

Remember that the controller's initial response to the pilot's first call
is: "PODUNK1234, Standby."


That's not correct. The controller's initial response to the pilot's first
call is: "N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby."

I was referring to an example instance wherein the pilot is not told to
remain outside of the airspace.

The misphrasing is the result of trying to keyboard and talk on the phone at
the same time. It should be "N1234, Standby".

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

Sounds like you guys might be running out of things to argue about, so
let
me give you something new.


There is nothing new. I'ne covered everything.



Steven asked: "Let's say communications have been established and you're
transiting Class C airspace. The controller has spoken with several
other
aircraft, but hasn't spoken with you since communications were
established.
At what point are you no longer maintaining communications and thus in
violation of FAR 91.130(c)(1)?"

Remember that the controller's initial response to the pilot's first
call
is: "PODUNK1234, Standby."


That's not correct. The controller's initial response to the pilot's
first
call is: "N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby."

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

I was referring to an example instance wherein the pilot is not told to
remain outside of the airspace.


We are not discussing the situation where communications are established and
the pilot is not told to remain outside Class C airspace.

Perhaps you should reread the following portion of your previous post, which
was quoted in my initial post:

Let's say communications have been established and you're transiting Class C
airspace. The controller has spoken with several other aircraft, but hasn't
spoken with you since communications were established. At what point are
you no longer maintaining communications and thus in violation of FAR
91.130(c)(1)?"

So we are, in fact, discussing: "the situation where communications are
established and the pilot is not told to remain outside Class C airspace."


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

I was referring to an example instance wherein the pilot is not told to
remain outside of the airspace.


We are not discussing the situation where communications are established
and
the pilot is not told to remain outside Class C airspace.