when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Peter" wrote in message
news:iHz0c.152146$jk2.593189@attbi_s53...

Sounds just like what Arden (the original poster) did; after his initial
contact with ATC and being told to stay clear he stopped
transmitting (left the frequency), took off, and flew a course that
avoided entering the Class C. "So after I took of, I started flying a
route taking me around the class C area that extended to the surface."


No, Arden maintained communications with ATC after they were established.
He was on the frequency when the controller called him after departure.



So by your words, we can assume the original request had then
been dropped.


Not by my words. I suggest you review Arden's original message.



Later he said that "Well, the controller then called me by my tail number
and asked some questions ..." So a new communication was established
which therefore implicitly allows entrance to the Class C according to
the regulations that you and others have cited.


How is that a new communication?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Peter" wrote in message
news:iHz0c.152146$jk2.593189@attbi_s53...

Sounds just like what Arden (the original poster) did; after his initial
contact with ATC and being told to stay clear he stopped
transmitting (left the frequency), took off, and flew a course that
avoided entering the Class C. "So after I took of, I started flying a
route taking me around the class C area that extended to the surface."

No, Arden maintained communications with ATC after they were established.
He was on the frequency when the controller called him after departure.

No, he was receiving only, not actively on the frequency. No communication
on his part took place while he took off and started flying his route as
described. Presumably the controller was communicating with other pilots
during this period.

So by your words, we can assume the original request had then
been dropped.

Not by my words. I suggest you review Arden's original message.

I obviously did and quoted it as well. His description met all the
requirements you gave in the previous post.

Later he said that "Well, the controller then called me by my tail number
and asked some questions ..." So a new communication was established
which therefore implicitly allows entrance to the Class C according to
the regulations that you and others have cited.

How is that a new communication?

In exactly the same way that if I walk into a room and talk to you, then
walk around talking to various other people - or sit in a corner while you
talk to others, and then eventually come back to talk to you we would be
'establishing a new communication.'

The communication between Arden and the controller was not an ongoing one -
they said a few words then stopped talking to each other and did their
separate tasks for an extended period. When they again started talking to
each other it's a new communication.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

The ATC handbook (7110.65) includes:

7-8-4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS

Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio
communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller
responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio
communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C
airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision
of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C
airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

Thus, the sequence:

N1234: Podunk tower, N1234...rest of stuff in initial callup
Podunk: N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby.
N1234: Podunk tower, N1234.
Podunk: N1234, standby.

authorized entry.



What led you to believe the phrase "Stand by" means "authorization to enter
Class C airspace is now granted"?


Not the "Stand by," but the "N1234, standby." And what might lead someone
to believe that is the direct quote from 7110.65, Sect. 7-8-4 above:
"If the controller responds to a radio call with, '(a/c call sign)
standby,' radio communications have been established and the pilot can
enter Class C airspace."

It also specifies that if the controller feels conditions at that time are
such that the aircraft should not enter Class C space he is to explicitly
state:
"PHRASEOLOGY-
(A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND STANDBY."

So based on my reading of the 7110.65 handbook it seems clear that if the
controller responds to a radio call with the a/c call sign but without the
explicit statement to "remain outside charlie airspace" then he has allowed
the pilot to proceed through the Class C airspace.

"Peter" wrote in message
news:9BB0c.88760$Xp.414365@attbi_s54...

No, he was receiving only, not actively on the frequency.
No communication on his part took place while he took off
and started flying his route as described. Presumably the
controller was communicating with other pilots during this
period.


Maintaining communications does not mean continuously broadcasting. Arden
established two-way radio communications, maintained a listening watch on
the frequency, and responded when the controller called him. That's
maintaining communications.



I obviously did and quoted it as well. His description met all the
requirements you gave in the previous post.


No, Arden did not leave the frequency. He was there when the controller
called him and he responded.



In exactly the same way that if I walk into a room and talk to you, then
walk around talking to various other people - or sit in a corner while you
talk to others, and then eventually come back to talk to you we would be
'establishing a new communication.'


That's not maintaining communications. What you describe is akin to leaving
the frequency for a while and returning to it later. Arden established
communications and remained on the frequency without broadcasting for a
time. Like you might if you were engaged in a conversation with a group of
people but only listened for a while. You're not speaking, but you're still
a party to the conversation.

When you establish communications again? Communications are established
just once for any arrival or through flight, thereafter those communications
are maintained.


Well, if some time passes between one transmission and another, then
communications will need to be re-established. How much time? Well, we can
yak all day about that. Certanly if the first transmission is on the ground
before runup, and the next transmission is in the air, it would be reasonable
to conclude that we are no longer talking about "the same conversation", and
(as per the original scenario) he can enter the class C upon the new
establishment of communications.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Peter" wrote in message
news:bQC0c.155274$uV3.704538@attbi_s51...

Not the "Stand by," but the "N1234, standby."


Did you miss that the controller had already instructed N1234 to remain
outside Charlie airspace?



And what might lead someone
to believe that is the direct quote from 7110.65, Sect. 7-8-4 above:
"If the controller responds to a radio call with, '(a/c call sign)
standby,' radio communications have been established and the pilot can
enter Class C airspace."


Yes, but communications had already been established in this case. Once
you've been instructed to remain outside of Class C airspace you must
receive specific instruction that authorizes entry.



It also specifies that if the controller feels conditions at that time are
such that the aircraft should not enter Class C space he is to explicitly
state:
"PHRASEOLOGY-
(A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND
STANDBY."


Yes, and in this case the aircraft was instructed to remain outside when
communications was established.



So based on my reading of the 7110.65 handbook it seems clear that if
the controller responds to a radio call with the a/c call sign but without
the explicit statement to "remain outside charlie airspace" then he has
allowed the pilot to proceed through the Class C airspace.


Then you did not understand what you read.

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Well, if some time passes between one transmission and another, then
communications will need to be re-established.


Why?



How much time? Well, we can yak all day about that. Certanly
if the first transmission is on the ground before runup, and the next
transmission is in the air, it would be reasonable to conclude that
we are no longer talking about "the same conversation", and (as
per the original scenario) he can enter the class C upon the new
establishment of communications.


But that's not per the original scenario.

Let's say communications have been established and you're transiting Class C
airspace. The controller has spoken with several other aircraft, but hasn't
spoken with you since communications were established. At what point are
you no longer maintaining communications and thus in violation of FAR
91.130(c)(1)?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news

"Peter" wrote in message
news:bQC0c.155274$uV3.704538@attbi_s51...

Not the "Stand by," but the "N1234, standby."


Did you miss that the controller had already instructed N1234 to remain
outside Charlie airspace?



And what might lead someone
to believe that is the direct quote from 7110.65, Sect. 7-8-4 above:
"If the controller responds to a radio call with, '(a/c call sign)
standby,' radio communications have been established and the pilot can
enter Class C airspace."


Yes, but communications had already been established in this case. Once
you've been instructed to remain outside of Class C airspace you must
receive specific instruction that authorizes entry.


Not exactly specific instructions. Since there is no such thing as a
clearance into class C airspace, we'll use the documented method which is to
"establish two-way radio communication." Something like "N1234, state your
intentions" from the controller will do.




It also specifies that if the controller feels conditions at that time
are
such that the aircraft should not enter Class C space he is to
explicitly
state:
"PHRASEOLOGY-
(A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND
STANDBY."


Yes, and in this case the aircraft was instructed to remain outside when
communications was established.

And then, when the controller has time to deal it, he calls up and says
"(A/c call sign) squawk 0541" or "(A/c call sign) where were you going?" or
any other question or piece of information with the aircraft's tail number
in it. Having heard this and responded, the pilot has authority to enter the
class C.




So based on my reading of the 7110.65 handbook it seems clear that if
the controller responds to a radio call with the a/c call sign but
without
the explicit statement to "remain outside charlie airspace" then he has
allowed the pilot to proceed through the Class C airspace.


Then you did not understand what you read.



Steven, I have a lot of respect for your opinion but I am having trouble
with your insistance that this is a cut and dried issue. You, me, and others
are quoting the same pieces of the regs and drawing opposite conclusions. It
is a simple question but the answer is just not clear from the regs.

Your responses that indicate that we are unable to interpret the regs
correctly or that we are not able to understand simple logic does not help
make your case. This has been a healthy debate between people who care
deeply about doing the right thing. Belittling our intelligence has no place
here.

None of the text quoted clearly supports your case - nor mine. Your claims
that simple logic dictates that an explicit clearance is required after a
"remain clear" has been issued are not sufficient.

I believe that you are an experienced controller. I believe that you will do
your job to the best of your ability. I hope that you will have patience
with me, if I ever approach your airspace and ask for clarification before
entering.
-------------------------------
Travis

Howdy!

Thanksfully, Steve left in enough context to make sense of his
nonsense reply.

In article k.net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

The ATC handbook (7110.65) includes:

7-8-4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS

Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio
communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller
responds to a radio call with, "(a/c call sign) standby," radio
communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C
airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision
of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C
airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

Thus, the sequence:

N1234: Podunk tower, N1234...rest of stuff in initial callup
Podunk: N1234, remain outside Charlie airspace and standby.
N1234: Podunk tower, N1234.
Podunk: N1234, standby.

authorized entry.


What led you to believe the phrase "Stand by" means "authorization to enter
Class C airspace is now granted"?

Plain English comprehension.

7110.65P 7-8-4 says "If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(a/c
call sign) standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot
can enter Class C airspace." In my hypothetical sequence, N1234 made a radio
call and the controller responded using the specific exemplar provided in
the order. The phrase "...and the pilot can enter Class C airspace" is the
key. I'm astonished that you have a problem understanding this, given your
claim to be a controller.


The second exchange did not instruct the pilot to
remain clear.


The second exchange included no instruction at all, the instruction to
remain outside Class C airspace was not altered in any way.

No, it merely served to establish communications in a manner consistent
with FAAO 7110.65P and FAR 91.130(c)1 and the AIM.



Steve has insisted the contrary,


Sure, that's just simple logic.



and even claimed to
be a controller working Class C airspace, and claimed to reference
7110.65. I quote what I found on the FAA website. Steve has declined
to rebut with actual citations. His sudden silence on this matter
would seem to be a concession that perhaps he misspoke.


Nope, Steve didn't misspeak. Steve is exactly correct.

Steve still doesn't offer citations supporting his specific contention
that a "remain clear" instruction, once given, lasts until it is
explicitly countermanded, despite a complete absence of phraseology to
accomplish this in FAAO 7110.65.


7110.65, the order prescribing air traffic control procedures and
phraseology for use by persons providing air traffic control services,
offers no special phraseology for the (hypothetical) instruction Steve
insists must be given.


There are many things that FAAO 7110.65 does not say. For example, it does
not say that "stand by" or "radar contact" authorizes entry for an aircraft
that had previously been instructed to remain outside Class C airspace. Nor
does it say that not repeating the instruction to remain outside in every
subsequent exchange authorizes entry. Why do you suppose that is?

Because what it actually says doesn't mean what you keep insisting it means.


yours,
Michael
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Howdy!

In article . net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

[snip]

...neither does "cleared into the Class C airspace", and it has the
benefit of not conveying formal meaning it shouldn't, unlike a
clearance.

Sure it does. To a pilot who mistakenly believes he needs a clearance to
enter US Class C airspace it means he can enter the Class C airspace. "Come
on down" means nothing.

"N1234, Come on down." satisfies the requirements for establishing two-way
radio communication that authorize entry into Class C airspace. So does
"N1234, cleared into the Class C airspace", but it [come on down] has the
advantage that it is not issuing a "clearance" where one is neither required
nor appropriate.

Since the controller is supposed to be the expert on how to do things, it is
incumbent on the controller to avoid giving out bogus clearances. Pilots are
more likely to be unclear on what they are to do, but that does not excuse
a controller doing so.


You don't bother explaining how this is a valid clearance.

No, Michael, I didn't explain how this is a valid clearance. That was
because it isn't a valid clearance. What part of; "Yes, I know, there are
no clearances for VFR aircraft through Class C airspace. Nobody knows that
better than I do. But I'm not going to argue with the pilot, if he insists
on a 'clearance' I give him a 'clearance.', did you not understand?

OK. I think you are quite clear. You place a higher priority on granting an
invalid request with an invalid clearance rather than operate within the
(in this case) clear direction in FAAO 7110.65. You display a disturbing
attitude toward doing a professional job as a controller.



Podunk
approach only needs to say "Waco 9876Z, roger." If Waco 9876Z
can't figure out what to do, he can ask.


And that's what he'll do, ask questions on an already congested frequency.
The reason for simply "clearing" him into Class C airspace was to avoid
adding to the congestion on the frequency.

Tell him to stay clear, if it's that bad. You have no obligation to even
reply to the call, let alone give a bogus reply to a bogus request.

[snip semantic null]

yours,
Michael
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/