Instrument rating??

"Mark Astley" wrote
Just to give you a data point...

I guess I fall into the low time pilot category at about 250 hours TT.

You do. When you're that low time, a lot of things make a difference
that will be irrelevant at 500+ hours.

My
insurance bill was about $90 lower this year possibly as a result of
attaining the instrument rating. Of course, this may be a break due to TT
rather than an IA, except that I don't think you get a break because of TT
until at least 300 hours.

First off, this varies by insurer but there isn't a single insurer I
know of that treats a 100 hour pilot the same as a 250 hour pilot when
it comes to flying a simple airplane. So don't be so quick to
discount total time - in general, both total time and time in the past
year are more important than ratings.

More to the point, though, continuing training (in whatever form, as
long as it is in your airplane) is attractive to a lot of insurers.
It shows that you are flying regularly, are training regularly, and
are disciplined about your flying. A rating (any rating) acquired in
the past year is generally worth something as long as your rates have
not bottomed out (and yours, at 250 hours, have not).

Still, I didn't get the IA for the insurance. I did it to increase the
usability of my plane. Here in NJ we get a lot of hazy summers and the
occasional scuddy days in fall/spring (ceiling around 2k).

Do you really believe that ceilings of 2000 AGL and visibilities of
3-5 miles require an instrument rating in a Cherokee?

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"Mark Astley" wrote
Just to give you a data point...

Still, I didn't get the IA for the insurance. I did it to increase the
usability of my plane. Here in NJ we get a lot of hazy summers and the
occasional scuddy days in fall/spring (ceiling around 2k).

Do you really believe that ceilings of 2000 AGL and visibilities of
3-5 miles require an instrument rating in a Cherokee?

Require? No, of course not, if you're content to get beaten senseless
cruising around down low. A hazy NJ summer can easily be less than 3 miles,
then there's the occasional freak occurence like smoke from Canada blowing
down into your airspace.

mark

"Mark Astley" wrote
Require? No, of course not, if you're content to get beaten senseless
cruising around down low.

So what you're actually increasing is comfort rather than capability.
Not that there's anything wrong with that - I've been known to file
IFR myself just because it was more convenient or comfortable - but
it's not the same thing as not being able to make it VFR.

A hazy NJ summer can easily be less than 3 miles,

Really? I'm there quite a bit, and I can't recall the last time the
haze made the visibility less than three miles. Not saying it can't
happen, but I don't see it happening much. What I do see a lot is a
tendency to dramatically underestimate visibility.

Whenever I fly with a student in hazy conditions, I always make it a
point to ask him what he thinks the visibility is. Then I point out a
distant but prominent object that I know is further than that, and ask
him how far away he thinks it is. Then we either find it on the map
and fly to it, until he realizes the visibility was a lot better than
what he thought.

In my experience, I've NEVER had a pilot with less than 1000 hours
fail to significantly underestimate the flight visibility in haze.
Just one of those things I've started noticing since I started
teaching.

then there's the occasional freak occurence like smoke from Canada blowing
down into your airspace.

Yeah, that happens. I remember when the smoke from Mexico blew into
Texas. I had about 300 hours then, and I remember thinking how bad it
was, and wondering if I was busting VFR mins. Now that I've racked up
several approaches in 2-4 miles of vis I know that it probably never
got worse than 4 miles. Sure seemed worse at the time though.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
m...
"Mark Astley" wrote
Require? No, of course not, if you're content to get beaten senseless
cruising around down low.

So what you're actually increasing is comfort rather than capability.
Not that there's anything wrong with that - I've been known to file
IFR myself just because it was more convenient or comfortable - but
it's not the same thing as not being able to make it VFR.

I see what you're saying, but I think the line is a bit blurrier. I'm not
going to file if I'm poking around the practice area with ceilings under 2k.
However, since I fly exclusively for pleasure, I'm not going to take a long
x-country cruising down low because I know no one in the plane will be
particularly happy bouncing around for several hours (maybe your passengers
are more tolerant). Before I could file, I had less capability because this
is a flight I wouldn't take. Now at least I have some options.

A hazy NJ summer can easily be less than 3 miles,

snip

In my experience, I've NEVER had a pilot with less than 1000 hours
fail to significantly underestimate the flight visibility in haze.
Just one of those things I've started noticing since I started
teaching.

Fair enough, guess I'll have to get back to you when I break 1000 hours
I imagine I look like a sissy when it comes to x-winds as well (my current
limit is gusts up to 20 on a direct x-wind, I won't go beyond that without
an instructor).

then there's the occasional freak occurence like smoke from Canada
blowing
down into your airspace.

Yeah, that happens. I remember when the smoke from Mexico blew into
Texas. I had about 300 hours then, and I remember thinking how bad it
was, and wondering if I was busting VFR mins. Now that I've racked up
several approaches in 2-4 miles of vis I know that it probably never
got worse than 4 miles. Sure seemed worse at the time though.


I concede that after more experience I may sing a different tune. I WILL
say that scanning for traffic in such conditions is pretty nerve wracking,
but of course filing doesn't get you out of doing that either.

mark

Still, I didn't get the IA for the insurance. I did it to increase
the
usability of my plane. Here in NJ we get a lot of hazy summers and
the
occasional scuddy days in fall/spring (ceiling around 2k).

Do you really believe that ceilings of 2000 AGL and visibilities of
3-5 miles require an instrument rating in a Cherokee?

Michael

I do. I'm about half way through my ifr training (about 230 hours total
time over 3 years). My pesonal VFR minimums are 3,500 ovc, 3,000 bkn. I had
to divert once due to weather going from 4,000 bkn to 800 within 20 minutes.
Luckily I was right over an airport when I called ahead to my class C home
base. Fetched the plane the next day.

Even so, once I get the rating, I'm betting my ifr minimums will still be
around the 2k agl mark (2-3 miles visibility). Given the severly blown
practice LOC approach last night under the hood, I need some room. :-) Hard
to tell though. I haven't even had any actual, yet. 1st time may scare my
minimums even higher.

Steven,

My pesonal VFR minimums are 3,500 ovc, 3,000 bkn.


Hmm. Bold statement. I wouldn't get in the air much with that as an
unqualified limit. Some questions that immediately pop up:

What kind of terrain? Where I fly a lot, it is all flat. Goin with a
ceiling of 1000 feet is usualy no problem. That would be different in
hill country, of course.

What is the visibility? Where I fly, great visibility underneath a low
cloud deck is common. No problem flying low in those conditions.

With good visibility and even 2500 feet hills around, I don't see why
you would need 3500 overcast to fly. And I agree to the other poster:
Most people underestimate visibility. 3 miles is REALLY, REALLY low.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Steven Barnes" wrote
I do. I'm about half way through my ifr training (about 230 hours total
time over 3 years). My pesonal VFR minimums are 3,500 ovc, 3,000 bkn. I had
to divert once due to weather going from 4,000 bkn to 800 within 20 minutes.

First, a question - if you've seen weather go from 4,000 bkn to 800,
how is a 3,000 ft bkn minimum keeping you safe?

Second, an observation - I've seen it go from CAVU to below ILS
minimums (200 and 1/2) in less than 30 minutes.

Luckily I was right over an airport when I called ahead to my class C home
base. Fetched the plane the next day.

Just realize that when you're VFR, you're never far from an airport
and you can see the weather going bad as it happens. Little VFR-only
fields are all over the place, and in most of the US you can cruising
VFR, decide to bail, and be on the ground in less than 10 minutes -
meaning you don't have to be very good at predicting the weather and
monitoring trends to escape.

IFR, if you're cruising and decide to bail, you're looking at 20-30
minutes before you are on the ground. Further, you can't see what the
weather is doing when you're in the clouds or above them. Thus IFR
you are more dependent on being able to predict the weather and
monitor trends, not less.

Even so, once I get the rating, I'm betting my ifr minimums will still be
around the 2k agl mark (2-3 miles visibility).

In that case, you would benefit far more from some competent
instruction in how to fly marginal VFR than from an instrument rating.
Just my opinion as a practicing instrument instructor...

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"Steven Barnes" wrote
snip
Even so, once I get the rating, I'm betting my ifr minimums will still
be
around the 2k agl mark (2-3 miles visibility).

In that case, you would benefit far more from some competent
instruction in how to fly marginal VFR than from an instrument rating.
Just my opinion as a practicing instrument instructor...

I wonder if minimums in this case are being misinterpreted. For me, the
reason for a 2k minimum (and at least 1 mile visibility) is not because I
don't feel comfortable shooting an ILS down to 200', it's because I fly a
single engine plane and I want an out if the engine decides to take the day
off. If I'm at least within gliding distance of higher ceilings, I know I
can break out and have a chance to find a place to land (side note: there's
a pretty good article in a recent IFR about practicing engine out under the
hood). I see this as conservative risk management (maybe more conservative
than others), not a lack of proficiency. By the same reasoning, regardless
of weather, I think twice about flying over mountains if something will
prevent me from getting decent altitude. I also don't fly at night (other
than the minimum that was required for the PP). As I gain experience, I may
lower my minimums to 1k, but I can't see going much lower than that, at
least not in my current plane.

What skills would a marginal VFR pilot need that they couldn't get from IFR
training? Even under IFR you may find yourself in marginal VFR conditions,
and you still have the responsibility to see and avoid, know what the
weather's doing, have as many outs as you think you need, etc. Or is it
that IFR training assumes these skills are already well developed?

mark

What skills would a marginal VFR pilot need that they couldn't get from IFR
training?


Pilotage. Ground reference maneuvers. Basic attitude flying. VFR chart
interpretation (wrt low altitude rubbernecking). These are the skills you need
for low level marginal vfr flight.
--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

What skills would a marginal VFR pilot need that they couldn't get from
IFR
training?


I concede that IFR training may not entail these subjects (except for
attitude flying and possibly ground reference), but you definitely need the
same skills, specifically:


Pilotage.

Better know how to do this even under IFR. Electrical systems don't care
whether you filed or not.

Ground reference maneuvers.

You could argue that "circle to land" requires similar skills, but I won't
make a fuss on this one.

Basic attitude flying.

This is DEFINITELY covered under IFR training.

VFR chart
interpretation (wrt low altitude rubbernecking).

Most CFIIs teach using both VFR and IFR charts in case Murphy shows up. I
guess the tacit assumption is that you already know how to read a VFR chart
and can recognize things that might get you in trouble in an emergency.

These are the skills you need
for low level marginal vfr flight.
--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)