Airplane Ownership

unicate (Shirley) writes:

I wasn't specific in my other post, but am asking for advice, suggestions,
cautions, tips on the airplanes themselves -- what to look for, what to avoid,
red flags, etc.

Take a look at previous threads on the topic. There are several.

I started my Private with the intention of just boring holes in
the sky when I was a kid. When I finally got serious about it, I
bought a twin and finished. I fly because it allows me to make
trips I couldn't make otherwise. It's very rare that I make a
flight that I could have reasonably made in a "trainer" (or even
in a "step-up" plane like an Arrow or C-182).

I think it's important to decide early whether you're going to
eventually want something more than a "trainer". If so, do you
really want to buy a trainer for your primary instruction? If
you do, think *hard* about resale value and don't go nuts on
avionics. Also consider how your experience is going to look to
an insurer. (It might make more sense to get a low-end
retractable now if you're going to want insurance for a
retractable later.) Long-range insurance planning can make a
*big* difference.

It might be quite a bit better in the long run to go somewhere
else (like an intensive course?) to finish your Private and just
save for the plane you really want. It *could* even work to get
*that* plane for your primary instruction because insurance will
probably require a bunch of dual in it anyway. (You won't hear
many people advising that you get a high-performance retract for
primary training. I'm just saying that you should consider it.)

Bottom line...decide what you're likely to want out of your
plane before you start looking at buying one, then learn about
the possibilities for *your* situation.

--kyler

Kyler Laird wrote in message ...
unicate (Shirley) writes:

I wasn't specific in my other post, but am asking for advice, suggestions,
cautions, tips on the airplanes themselves -- what to look for, what to avoid,
red flags, etc.

Take a look at previous threads on the topic. There are several.

I started my Private with the intention of just boring holes in
the sky when I was a kid. When I finally got serious about it, I
bought a twin and finished. I fly because it allows me to make
trips I couldn't make otherwise. It's very rare that I make a
flight that I could have reasonably made in a "trainer" (or even
in a "step-up" plane like an Arrow or C-182).

I think it's important to decide early whether you're going to
eventually want something more than a "trainer". If so, do you
really want to buy a trainer for your primary instruction? If
you do, think *hard* about resale value and don't go nuts on
avionics. Also consider how your experience is going to look to
an insurer. (It might make more sense to get a low-end
retractable now if you're going to want insurance for a
retractable later.) Long-range insurance planning can make a
*big* difference.


I have to disagree here. The best advice I was given before I
purchased my first airplane was "Buy for the next 5 years...not the
next 30". I know quite a few people around the airport who bought
expensive 'touring' planes (A-36s or Barons) that just sit on the
tarmac because they cost $200 an hour to fly. They bought them with
the intention of flying them on long trips etc., but they almost never
fly them because it sosts too much to bore holes in the sky, and
unless you bore holes in the sky, you aren't current enough to handle
a Bone.

Since the original poster is just finishing their private license, for
the next 2 or 3 years (at least) they will be working on their
instrument ticket, their Commercial ticket...stuff that requires
hours, and for these things, an hour in a $30/hour 152 is the same as
an hour in a $150/hr A36.

Since planes like this don't depreciate much (if at all), then all
that will be lost by buying a cheaper, small plane to train in is the
opportunity cost of the money, which right now isn't all that much and
interest expenses, which are more than outweighed by the cost savings
of owning a plane that you fly 125 hours per year.

If I was in this persons shoes, I'd go out and buy a $25,000-$35,000
four seater. A 1960s vintage 172, or a Beech Musketeer. You get much
more functionality out of it that you would a two seater, and the
operating costs are not that much higher. Both of these planes are
inexpensive to operate and own, and will certainly do for training,
local flight and XCs of less than about 400 NM.

This is basically what I did do myself, altho I waited until I
finished my private license to buy it. A couple friends and I bought a
1963 Beech Musketeer for $26,000 and flew the heck out of it. I did my
instrument and commercial training it it, and some of my CFI. Took it
all over...we put over 500 hours on it the first year we owned it. And
it eneded up being *much* cheaper than renting one of the FBOs beater
172s. While they wanted $72 an hour for a 172, the fully loaded costs
of the Musketeer over almost 3 years came out to be right around $47
per hour, wet, including some fairly expensive maintenence items.
Right there, that saved me thousands of dollars.

After you use this plane to get your license, *then* decide if you
need something more. I'm buying another plane like this (sold my
Musketeer to a club for a very tidey profit and a membership in the
club). The Club has a nice touring plane (A Cessna 206) and may be
getting a twin. Given that I need these planes maybe 5 times a year
for longer trips, it makes more sense for me to own a 'cheap' plane
(i.e. a $40 per hour 172 or Musketeer) and fly the club plane (at $80
or $125 an hour) than to own a more expensive plane.

Different strokes for different folks tho, so this is just my two
cents worth

Cheers,

Cap



It might be quite a bit better in the long run to go somewhere
else (like an intensive course?) to finish your Private and just
save for the plane you really want. It *could* even work to get
*that* plane for your primary instruction because insurance will
probably require a bunch of dual in it anyway. (You won't hear
many people advising that you get a high-performance retract for
primary training. I'm just saying that you should consider it.)

Bottom line...decide what you're likely to want out of your
plane before you start looking at buying one, then learn about
the possibilities for *your* situation.

--kyler

(Captain Wubba) writes:

Since the original poster is just finishing their private license, for
the next 2 or 3 years (at least) they will be working on their
instrument ticket, their Commercial ticket...stuff that requires
hours,

How do you know? *I* certainly didn't. Within six months of getting
my Private, I was touring the country with my family in my Aztec. Had
I been limited to putting in hours in some little plane, there's a
good chance I would have given up flying (again). That would have been
a lousy investment.

I think it's silly to pretend that all pilots are going to be
motivated by the desire to "get hours."

--kyler

Kyler Laird wrote in message ...
(Captain Wubba) writes:

Since the original poster is just finishing their private license, for
the next 2 or 3 years (at least) they will be working on their
instrument ticket, their Commercial ticket...stuff that requires
hours,

How do you know? *I* certainly didn't. Within six months of getting
my Private, I was touring the country with my family in my Aztec. Had
I been limited to putting in hours in some little plane, there's a
good chance I would have given up flying (again). That would have been
a lousy investment.

Well, that is great for you. Of the dozens and dozens of pilots I know
that makes *one* who has done this. The other 95% have spent their
time flyign 150s and 172 and Cherokees, doing some XC flying, but
often working on their IFR tickets and trying to develop their flying
skills. I recommended a 4 seater like a 172 or a Musketeer. One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?) and use for reasonably
useful trips *and* training. Buying a 172 is almost *never* a 'lousy
investment'. You might lose a small amount when you sell it (but
probably not) but you will certainly recoup that amount in decreased
cost if you do a good prebuy on it and fly it a lot.


I think it's silly to pretend that all pilots are going to be
motivated by the desire to "get hours."

I think it is sillier to assume that your personal experience is more
applicable than that of the 'other' 95% of the new pilot population.
There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec (Heck, I'm an instructor with a Multi Commercial, 600
hours total time, and an instrument ticket and *I* Can't get
reasonably priced insurance in a twin). There are reasons planes like
172s make good 'starter' planes. For the first year after getting yout
private ticket, even if you *aren't* looking to build hours per se,
you *are* looking to develop your skills and become a more proficient
pilot.

The original poster asked a simple question. I responded in a way that
took into account the actions of the vast majority of new pilots and
answered accordingly.

Cheers,

Cap



--kyler

(Captain Wubba) writes:

One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?)

Nope. Are you suggesting that such insurance is mandatory? Do we
need to pull Mike R. into the discussion?

I think it's silly to pretend that all pilots are going to be
motivated by the desire to "get hours."

I think it is sillier to assume that your personal experience is more
applicable than that of the 'other' 95% of the new pilot population.

Fortunately I didn't do that. I only suggested examining long-term
goals and motivations. The sweeping pronouncments were yours.

There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec

I was told it's cyclical. Look for it to come around again.

The original poster asked a simple question. I responded in a way that
took into account the actions of the vast majority of new pilots and
answered accordingly.

I realize that there are a lot of people who post to rec.aviation.*
who are perfectly happy saying that something is always true despite
counterexamples. I'm not one of them.

Your "disagreement" with my experience doesn't strike me as useful.

--kyler

Dat's right! Don't need no stinking insurance!

Mike
MU-2

"Kyler Laird" wrote in message
...
(Captain Wubba) writes:

One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?)

Nope. Are you suggesting that such insurance is mandatory? Do we
need to pull Mike R. into the discussion?

I think it's silly to pretend that all pilots are going to be
motivated by the desire to "get hours."

I think it is sillier to assume that your personal experience is more
applicable than that of the 'other' 95% of the new pilot population.

Fortunately I didn't do that. I only suggested examining long-term
goals and motivations. The sweeping pronouncments were yours.

There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec

I was told it's cyclical. Look for it to come around again.

The original poster asked a simple question. I responded in a way that
took into account the actions of the vast majority of new pilots and
answered accordingly.

I realize that there are a lot of people who post to rec.aviation.*
who are perfectly happy saying that something is always true despite
counterexamples. I'm not one of them.

Your "disagreement" with my experience doesn't strike me as useful.

--kyler

I think it's silly to pretend that all pilots are going
to be motivated by the desire to "get hours."

I think it is sillier to assume that your personal
experience is more applicable than that of the
'other' 95% of the new pilot population.

Gentlemen, please ... I appreciate all the input, regardless of which point of
view you are contributing.

I don't have huge aspirations regarding airplanes; then again, it wasn't that
long ago that I thought getting a private pilot ticket was a huge aspiration
(still do, actually)! Right now, I don't plan to go on long, cross-country
trips and don't plan on taking two or three passengers or a lot of baggage. Not
necessarily looking for an airplane I would keep forever, but would keep it as
long as it suits my needs, is fun to fly (subjective opinion, I realize), and
isn't a bottomless money pitt.

I don't expect it to be "cheaper than renting", but I would gladly pay the
difference for being in charge of arranging for maintenance myself vs. having
to look for another airplane to rent until some school is good and ready to
have something fixed. An added bonus would be not having to arrange my schedule
based on when the aircraft is available to me.

As for insurance, I have already gotten quotes, so I know it is do-able. Just
wondered what advice/tips people who'd gone this route would give, in
retrospect.

Kyler Laird wrote in message ...
(Captain Wubba) writes:

One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?)

Nope. Are you suggesting that such insurance is mandatory? Do we
need to pull Mike R. into the discussion?

Absolutely not. I'm sure most of the folks asking questions here have
$100,000 in cash lying around to purchase an Aztec so that they don't
need a loan (for which insurance *is* generally mandatory). And I'm
sure those people have *no* other assets that they might wish to try
to protect via insurance. Probably applies to 3/4 of all pilots,
right?


I think it's silly to pretend that all pilots are going to be
motivated by the desire to "get hours."

I think it is sillier to assume that your personal experience is more
applicable than that of the 'other' 95% of the new pilot population.

Fortunately I didn't do that. I only suggested examining long-term
goals and motivations. The sweeping pronouncments were yours.

Really? What were they? I extrapolated what seems to be the course for
the vast majority of new pilots and suggested a reasonable answer to
the poster based on that. As I said in the first post I made, the best
advice I got was to look at a plane purchase as one for the next 5
years, not the next 30. Still the best advice I received.


There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec

I was told it's cyclical. Look for it to come around again.

Indeed. I fully expect that in a year or two a 60-hour Private Pilot
can get some top-flight Citation Insurance for $30 a year. Any day
now.


The original poster asked a simple question. I responded in a way that
took into account the actions of the vast majority of new pilots and
answered accordingly.

I realize that there are a lot of people who post to rec.aviation.*
who are perfectly happy saying that something is always true despite
counterexamples. I'm not one of them.

You have no idea how happy I am for you.

But when did I ever say or imply such a thing myself?


Your "disagreement" with my experience doesn't strike me as useful.

Well, maybe since I was responding to the original poster who asked a
reasonable question demaning a reasonable answer, perhaps that is a
good thing, given your response. Perhaps it isn't useful to you.
Hopefully it was to him.


--kyler

Cap

(Captain Wubba) writes:

One they
can fly *immediately* (Want to guess what it would cost to get a new
private pilot insured in a Bone or an Aztec?)

Nope. Are you suggesting that such insurance is mandatory? Do we
need to pull Mike R. into the discussion?

Absolutely not. I'm sure most of the folks asking questions here have
$100,000 in cash lying around to purchase an Aztec so that they don't
need a loan (for which insurance *is* generally mandatory).

Again you're off on "most" (even though a specific person was asking
for help originally). Why not just say "Everyone should get a C-172"
and be done with your sage advice?

And I'm
sure those people have *no* other assets that they might wish to try
to protect via insurance. Probably applies to 3/4 of all pilots,
right?

Doesn't apply to me. Don't care.

Fortunately I didn't do that. I only suggested examining long-term
goals and motivations. The sweeping pronouncments were yours.

Really? What were they?

Oh! You didn't read the part that I quoted in my response. That
does explain some of the confusion.

Here it is again.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

Since the original poster is just finishing their private license, for
the next 2 or 3 years (at least) they will be working on their
instrument ticket, their Commercial ticket...stuff that requires
hours,

There is *no* chance today that a new private pilot could get insured
in an Aztec

I was told it's cyclical. Look for it to come around again.

Indeed. I fully expect that in a year or two a 60-hour Private Pilot
can get some top-flight Citation Insurance for $30 a year. Any day
now.

Are you implying that it's not cyclical or are you again discounting my
experience of getting insurance for an Aztec as a new Private Pilot?

Your "disagreement" with my experience doesn't strike me as useful.

Well, maybe since I was responding to the original poster who asked a
reasonable question demaning a reasonable answer, perhaps that is a
good thing, given your response. Perhaps it isn't useful to you.
Hopefully it was to him.

Maybe. Maybe not. Either way, it's based on false assumptions.

--kyler