Airplane Ownership

"Mike Rapoport" wrote:
I believe that the reason that airplanes have appreciated is that
the older ones have been, for all practical purposes, equal to the
new ones. With the advent of the glass cockpit, his is no
longer true.

I don't agree that the glass cockpits add a tremendous amount of real
value over old instruments combined with an MFD. Consider the
experience of Cirrus Designs, which believed, naively, it turned out,
that glass cockpits would make their airplanes notably safer than older
designs. The only thing I find really exciting about the new designs is
the electronic AHRS which finally supplants the old pneumatic gyros.

Sheer pizzazz is selling new glass cockpit airplanes now, but when they
get old enough for the used market, it's uncertain that they will
command a large premium. Will prices of used 2003 Skylanes be depressed
$50K vs. 2004 ones? It's hard for me to picture myself paying that kind
of premium for just the pretty boxes.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

Cessna sold out an entire years 182 and 206 production in one hour following
the announcement that they would have the G1000. That tells me that people
desire glass cockpits. You should also know that the glass cockpits are
cheaper than the analog gauges that they replace. I would hate to be the
guy who bought the last non-glass 182.

Mike
MU-2





"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:
I believe that the reason that airplanes have appreciated is that
the older ones have been, for all practical purposes, equal to the
new ones. With the advent of the glass cockpit, his is no
longer true.

I don't agree that the glass cockpits add a tremendous amount of real
value over old instruments combined with an MFD. Consider the
experience of Cirrus Designs, which believed, naively, it turned out,
that glass cockpits would make their airplanes notably safer than older
designs. The only thing I find really exciting about the new designs is
the electronic AHRS which finally supplants the old pneumatic gyros.

Sheer pizzazz is selling new glass cockpit airplanes now, but when they
get old enough for the used market, it's uncertain that they will
command a large premium. Will prices of used 2003 Skylanes be depressed
$50K vs. 2004 ones? It's hard for me to picture myself paying that kind
of premium for just the pretty boxes.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

Yes, but Cessna also cut their production in half this year. Also, it's the
dealers that are buying these. If you look on the various aircraft for sale
websites, you'll see that the dealers are advertising them as available.
So, it remains to be seen exactly how fast they will be snatched up.
Although, I'd tend to believe that they'll go quickly.

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...
Cessna sold out an entire years 182 and 206 production in one hour
following
the announcement that they would have the G1000. That tells me that
people
desire glass cockpits. You should also know that the glass cockpits are
cheaper than the analog gauges that they replace. I would hate to be the
guy who bought the last non-glass 182.

Mike
MU-2





"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:
I believe that the reason that airplanes have appreciated is that
the older ones have been, for all practical purposes, equal to the
new ones. With the advent of the glass cockpit, his is no
longer true.

I don't agree that the glass cockpits add a tremendous amount of real
value over old instruments combined with an MFD. Consider the
experience of Cirrus Designs, which believed, naively, it turned out,
that glass cockpits would make their airplanes notably safer than older
designs. The only thing I find really exciting about the new designs is
the electronic AHRS which finally supplants the old pneumatic gyros.

Sheer pizzazz is selling new glass cockpit airplanes now, but when they
get old enough for the used market, it's uncertain that they will
command a large premium. Will prices of used 2003 Skylanes be depressed
$50K vs. 2004 ones? It's hard for me to picture myself paying that kind
of premium for just the pretty boxes.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

That is perceived value - in the end, there is no real added value - I get
the same from my handheld.


"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...
Cessna sold out an entire years 182 and 206 production in one hour
following
the announcement that they would have the G1000. That tells me that
people
desire glass cockpits. You should also know that the glass cockpits are
cheaper than the analog gauges that they replace. I would hate to be the
guy who bought the last non-glass 182.

Mike
MU-2





"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:
I believe that the reason that airplanes have appreciated is that
the older ones have been, for all practical purposes, equal to the
new ones. With the advent of the glass cockpit, his is no
longer true.

I don't agree that the glass cockpits add a tremendous amount of real
value over old instruments combined with an MFD. Consider the
experience of Cirrus Designs, which believed, naively, it turned out,
that glass cockpits would make their airplanes notably safer than older
designs. The only thing I find really exciting about the new designs is
the electronic AHRS which finally supplants the old pneumatic gyros.

Sheer pizzazz is selling new glass cockpit airplanes now, but when they
get old enough for the used market, it's uncertain that they will
command a large premium. Will prices of used 2003 Skylanes be depressed
$50K vs. 2004 ones? It's hard for me to picture myself paying that kind
of premium for just the pretty boxes.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

Well, until I fly a fully integrated electronic cockpit, I'll reserve my
judgement of value. But I'm hoping and thinking that a fully integrated set
of avionics and instrumentation has real value beyond that of the piece
parts.

We can continue to fly 50s vintage equipment with a handheld GPS unit and
complain about how slowly small plane aviation technology advances. I want
to jump on the horse. The Skylane is halfway there. The Cirrus and the
'other one' seem to be the first 21st century light a/c. I think I'm going
to like it a lot and I'd hate to buy the last new steam guage Skylane too.

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
news
That is perceived value - in the end, there is no real added value - I get
the same from my handheld.


"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...
Cessna sold out an entire years 182 and 206 production in one hour
following
the announcement that they would have the G1000. That tells me that
people
desire glass cockpits. You should also know that the glass cockpits are
cheaper than the analog gauges that they replace. I would hate to be
the
guy who bought the last non-glass 182.

Mike
MU-2





"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:
I believe that the reason that airplanes have appreciated is that
the older ones have been, for all practical purposes, equal to the
new ones. With the advent of the glass cockpit, his is no
longer true.

I don't agree that the glass cockpits add a tremendous amount of real
value over old instruments combined with an MFD. Consider the
experience of Cirrus Designs, which believed, naively, it turned out,
that glass cockpits would make their airplanes notably safer than
older
designs. The only thing I find really exciting about the new designs
is
the electronic AHRS which finally supplants the old pneumatic gyros.

Sheer pizzazz is selling new glass cockpit airplanes now, but when
they
get old enough for the used market, it's uncertain that they will
command a large premium. Will prices of used 2003 Skylanes be
depressed
$50K vs. 2004 ones? It's hard for me to picture myself paying that
kind
of premium for just the pretty boxes.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

My VOR receivers are functional and so is my Garmin 295. I could have spent
a bunch of money for an MFD and a GPS (ifr certified) and an AP, but that
was waaay too much for the "extra" value that I am getting.

It is nice to see pictures and things in the airplane, but not at that
price. (I also have seen too many people become way too dependent on the
pretty moving map that they have no idea what to do if it is not there. )


"Maule Driver" wrote in message
. com...
Well, until I fly a fully integrated electronic cockpit, I'll reserve my
judgement of value. But I'm hoping and thinking that a fully integrated
set
of avionics and instrumentation has real value beyond that of the piece
parts.

We can continue to fly 50s vintage equipment with a handheld GPS unit and
complain about how slowly small plane aviation technology advances. I
want
to jump on the horse. The Skylane is halfway there. The Cirrus and the
'other one' seem to be the first 21st century light a/c. I think I'm
going
to like it a lot and I'd hate to buy the last new steam guage Skylane too.

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
news
That is perceived value - in the end, there is no real added value - I
get
the same from my handheld.


"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...
Cessna sold out an entire years 182 and 206 production in one hour
following
the announcement that they would have the G1000. That tells me that
people
desire glass cockpits. You should also know that the glass cockpits
are
cheaper than the analog gauges that they replace. I would hate to be
the
guy who bought the last non-glass 182.

Mike
MU-2





"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:
I believe that the reason that airplanes have appreciated is that
the older ones have been, for all practical purposes, equal to the
new ones. With the advent of the glass cockpit, his is no
longer true.

I don't agree that the glass cockpits add a tremendous amount of
real
value over old instruments combined with an MFD. Consider the
experience of Cirrus Designs, which believed, naively, it turned
out,
that glass cockpits would make their airplanes notably safer than
older
designs. The only thing I find really exciting about the new designs
is
the electronic AHRS which finally supplants the old pneumatic gyros.

Sheer pizzazz is selling new glass cockpit airplanes now, but when
they
get old enough for the used market, it's uncertain that they will
command a large premium. Will prices of used 2003 Skylanes be
depressed
$50K vs. 2004 ones? It's hard for me to picture myself paying that
kind
of premium for just the pretty boxes.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

When the picture includes terrain data to help you get home safely on IFR
days in the mountains, it is pretty indeed.

Your point is well taken, though. Moving map GPS and MFDs can be addictive
and cause one to lose some pilotage and simple radio navigation skills.

--snip--

It is nice to see pictures and things in the airplane, but not at that
price. (I also have seen too many people become way too dependent on the
pretty moving map that they have no idea what to do if it is not there. )

Sometimes I think we all just reflexively feel that use of the newest
technology erodes older, somehow more valuable skills. Radio navigation
eroding our pilotage skills, ADFs and VOR eroding LF range skills (whatever
they were), GPS eroding VOR skills, MFDs eroding our eyesight...

I flew 100 to 300 mile glider cross countries for 5+ years exclusively by
pilotage. No radio navigation, no dead reckoning, often over unfamiliar
terrain and at low altitudes. It was challenging, I got very good at it,
and it all disappeared when the first GPS units hit the scene. Didn't miss
it for a second and the sport became even more fun. There's nothing noble
about not using the best technology when operating a machine... and I fly a
tailwheel.

I question how many pilots with an electrical system actually have any
appreciable pilotage skills. Or how many actually practice their dead
reckoning skills. And why is navigating by VOR somehow more meaningful than
by GPS?

I think the real skill gap lies in the fact that too many pilots fly
equipment that they have not fully trained on or are proficient with. Using
a panel mount GPS unit effectively requires more skill, not less.
..
"SJC Flying Club"
Your point is well taken, though. Moving map GPS and MFDs can be
addictive
and cause one to lose some pilotage and simple radio navigation skills.

It is nice to see pictures and things in the airplane, but not at that
price. (I also have seen too many people become way too dependent on
the
pretty moving map that they have no idea what to do if it is not
here. )

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
news
My VOR receivers are functional and so is my Garmin 295. I could have
spent
a bunch of money for an MFD and a GPS (ifr certified) and an AP, but that
was waaay too much for the "extra" value that I am getting.

It is nice to see pictures and things in the airplane, but not at that
price.

Have to agree that the cost/benefit ratio can be pretty lopsided. But I do
celebrate the fact that glass cockpits are available at all in SEL a/c. And
at a reasonable yet high price for new a/c.

At the same time, you couldn't pry my panel mounted ifr certified GPS unit
out of my hands very easily. A very high value item for me.

(I also have seen too many people become way too dependent on the
pretty moving map that they have no idea what to do if it is not there. )

Oh poppycock...

"Dan Luke" wrote
I don't agree that the glass cockpits add a tremendous amount of real
value over old instruments combined with an MFD. Consider the
experience of Cirrus Designs, which believed, naively, it turned out,
that glass cockpits would make their airplanes notably safer than older
designs. The only thing I find really exciting about the new designs is
the electronic AHRS which finally supplants the old pneumatic gyros.

Sheer pizzazz is selling new glass cockpit airplanes now, but when they
get old enough for the used market, it's uncertain that they will
command a large premium. Will prices of used 2003 Skylanes be depressed
$50K vs. 2004 ones? It's hard for me to picture myself paying that kind
of premium for just the pretty boxes.
--

It may, in the long run, not matter about "real value." "Perceived value"
might move the market. Think how many times the threads about VORs going the
way of the NDB have been posted in the rec.aviation.* newsgroups.

Gig G