Couldn't Get it Down

Andrew Gideon wrote:

G.R. Patterson III wrote:


Even if this is not the case, if you ask a CFI why
he recommends a particular course of action, the answer frequently is that
you need to get in the habit of doing whatever 'cause you need to do it
that way "when you upgrade to higher performance aircraft".


Sometimes, though, that's the right answer.

Only if you are going to move to a different aircraft soon. If not then
it's a bunch of BS.

Newps wrote:

Only if you are going to move to a different aircraft soon. If not then
it's a bunch of BS.

One of the advantages of flying a Maule is that no CFI criticizes you for raising
the flaps on the runway.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:51:27 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote:



Newps wrote:

Only if you are going to move to a different aircraft soon. If not then
it's a bunch of BS.

One of the advantages of flying a Maule is that no CFI criticizes you for raising
the flaps on the runway.

George Patterson

Hmm, what's wrong with flaps up on the runway? That's the way I was
taught to land a Cessna 172, touch down, flaps up. I can see how it
might make for the possibility of retracting the gear instead of the
flaps if you have retractible gear and the levers are both located
near each other, but fixed gear? What could be the harm?

Thanks, Corky Scott

Corky Scott wrote:

I can see how it
might make for the possibility of retracting the gear instead of the
flaps if you have retractible gear and the levers are both located
near each other, but fixed gear? What could be the harm?

To quote various CFIs I encountered when I flew Cessnas, "because there's too
much risk of hitting the gear up by mistake when you upgrade to higher
performance aircraft". A poster rec.aviation.something last year claimed that
there's even an examiner out there who will fail you if you raise the flaps in
a 172 while still on the runway.

I agree with you, however. I feel you should fly the plane you're in at the
moment; not one that you might be able to buy sometime in future.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:56:30 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote:



Corky Scott wrote:

I can see how it
might make for the possibility of retracting the gear instead of the
flaps if you have retractible gear and the levers are both located
near each other, but fixed gear? What could be the harm?

To quote various CFIs I encountered when I flew Cessnas, "because there's too
much risk of hitting the gear up by mistake when you upgrade to higher
performance aircraft". A poster rec.aviation.something last year claimed that
there's even an examiner out there who will fail you if you raise the flaps in
a 172 while still on the runway.

I agree with you, however. I feel you should fly the plane you're in at the
moment; not one that you might be able to buy sometime in future.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

Well that makes sense, although failing someone for innocently
following the procedures he was taught seems overly harsh.

A friend of mine just acquired a V tailed Bonanza, and while sitting
in the cockpit the other day I noticed that both the flaps and gear
handles are not far from each other, and while the handles are
slightly differently shaped, they are both the same color and are at
the same height. So one is as easy to grab as the other. In
addition, this Bonanza has the dual yokes option, and in this case it
means a cross bar that blocks the lower part of the instrument panel
from sight. So it would pay to be very careful about grabbing the
gear or flap handles in this airplane.

I chose to put the flap handle of my homebuilt on the ceiling, so that
when the flaps are down, so is the handle. The gear is fixed so
raising the flaps upon touchdown will become a normal part of landing.

Corky Scott

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 14:39:13 GMT,
(Corky Scott) wrote:

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:56:30 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote:



Corky Scott wrote:

I can see how it
might make for the possibility of retracting the gear instead of the
flaps if you have retractible gear and the levers are both located
near each other, but fixed gear? What could be the harm?

To quote various CFIs I encountered when I flew Cessnas, "because there's too
much risk of hitting the gear up by mistake when you upgrade to higher
performance aircraft". A poster rec.aviation.something last year claimed that
there's even an examiner out there who will fail you if you raise the flaps in
a 172 while still on the runway.

I agree with you, however. I feel you should fly the plane you're in at the
moment; not one that you might be able to buy sometime in future.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

Well that makes sense, although failing someone for innocently
following the procedures he was taught seems overly harsh.

A friend of mine just acquired a V tailed Bonanza, and while sitting
in the cockpit the other day I noticed that both the flaps and gear

You missed the important thing though.
On the Bo the flap and gear handles are reversed compared to the rest
of the world. I happen to think they are right and the rest of the
world is wrong, but I learned to fly retracts in a Bo so it's no
biggie. For other pilots however, they run a very strong risk of
retracting the gear when they meant to retract the flaps.

handles are not far from each other, and while the handles are
slightly differently shaped, they are both the same color and are at
the same height. So one is as easy to grab as the other. In
addition, this Bonanza has the dual yokes option, and in this case it
means a cross bar that blocks the lower part of the instrument panel
from sight. So it would pay to be very careful about grabbing the
gear or flap handles in this airplane.

Even with the throw over yoke it will be in the wrong position at the
wrong time and blocks the view of those handles, the vacuum gage, and
fuel gages.


Wait till you reach for the heater and pull the parking brake. (they
are side by side the same shape and the same color) I did that and it
was cold enough that I couldn't get the brake to release so we got to
land with the brakes locked. It was an interesting exercise.

The guy with me wanted to know if I was going to ease it on. I told
him no, this was going to be an arrival. A very firm arrival and with
luck the wheels would turn instead of skid. They did, but it was one
of the shortest roll outs I've ever had. Now that was truely a short
field landing.

As an added note, in the Bo I'd leave the flaps down anyway. I do full
stall landings and those big barn door flaps make for very steep
descents that require substantial power if you are going to fly as
slow as the book tells you. You can normally land over a 50 foot
obstacle and be stopped in 1200 to 1500 feet with little of no use of
the brakes. (except on hot days... or when you are out of practice
G)

I chose to put the flap handle of my homebuilt on the ceiling, so that
when the flaps are down, so is the handle. The gear is fixed so
raising the flaps upon touchdown will become a normal part of landing.

I use the flaps for aerodynamic breaking and they are very effective.
Hence all landings are full flap and I have no inclination to raise
them on roll out. Besides, they are electric and by the time they
could be up I'm making my turn off.

I've only flown one airplane where retracting the flaps on roll out
had any effect and that was a Cherokee 180 with the old Johnson Bar
flap actuator. There was a plane you could land in an area so small
it would leave absolutely no doubt there was no use in even attempting
to fly out.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Corky Scott