We Are All Spaniards

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:5ri5c.16535$_w.340261@attbi_s53...
Unfortunately, the Spanish just showed that terror will influence elections,
policies, treaties, and troop deployments.

I have read this thread with both respect for the (mostly) flame-free
discusion and in awe for the lack of information. You should read more
non-US media...

1. Spaniards changed their vote not because of terror, but because the
government manipulated the information regarding the terror attacks
and tried to mislead the people for their own advantage (ring a
bell?).

2. Terrorists are not fighting a religious war. They are fighting the
US and its allies, not Christianity.

You should read more
non-US media...

1. Spaniards changed their vote not because of terror, but because the
government manipulated the information regarding the terror attacks
and tried to mislead the people for their own advantage (ring a
bell?).

2. Terrorists are not fighting a religious war. They are fighting the
US and its allies, not Christianity.


can you post a relevant URL please?
www.Rosspilot.com

ospam (Rosspilot) wrote in message ...
You should read more
non-US media...

1. Spaniards changed their vote not because of terror, but because the
government manipulated the information regarding the terror attacks
and tried to mislead the people for their own advantage (ring a
bell?).

2. Terrorists are not fighting a religious war. They are fighting the
US and its allies, not Christianity.


can you post a relevant URL please?
www.Rosspilot.com

http://www.prensalibre.com/pls/prens...icion=16-03-04
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2004/03/15/i-01616.htm
http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2004/mar0...5/003n2mun.php

You can do your own search.

ospam (Rosspilot) wrote in message ...
You should read more
non-US media...

1. Spaniards changed their vote not because of terror, but because the
government manipulated the information regarding the terror attacks
and tried to mislead the people for their own advantage (ring a
bell?).

2. Terrorists are not fighting a religious war. They are fighting the
US and its allies, not Christianity.


can you post a relevant URL please?
www.Rosspilot.com

Also, in case you can't read Spanish:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4535595/

where you can read:
'Analysts say that Aznar's party lost the race because Spaniards saw
their rush to judgment against the ETA as a politically convenient
deception. "In trying to get an electoral victory, they emphasized the
ETA-theory to such an extent that the manipulation was too obvious,"
says Nuñez. "And, in the end, the population reacted to being
manipulated." A policeman at the end of the island on Line 2 at Atocha
station said it in other words, whispering with repressed anger, "All
the politicians can go to hell."'

1. Spaniards changed their vote not because of terror, but because the
government manipulated the information regarding the terror attacks
and tried to mislead the people for their own advantage (ring a
bell?).

If you read the entire thread, you will find that you have missed this
salient point: It doesn't matter one whit if the Spanish voted for the
Socialists because they were influenced by Martians. Rather, what matters
is this: The terrorists must now perceive that elections and troop
deployments can be influenced by indiscriminate attacks on innocent "soft"
targets.

This is a very bad thing.

2. Terrorists are not fighting a religious war. They are fighting the
US and its allies, not Christianity.

No one here says they're fighting Christianity, although that is the
under-current of the conversation. But their fight goes well beyond the "US
and its allies." Rather, it encompasses all of Western civilization and
Western morals and standards.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:Yw66c.32304$_w.539101@attbi_s53...
If you read the entire thread, you will find that you have missed this
salient point: It doesn't matter one whit if the Spanish voted for the
Socialists because they were influenced by Martians. Rather, what matters
is this: The terrorists must now perceive that elections and troop
deployments can be influenced by indiscriminate attacks on innocent "soft"
targets.

Then I hope the terrorists are better informed than most people in
this group. If Aznar's administration hadn't manipulated the
information, and if the Spanish people hadn't been 90% against the
invasion of Irak, the bombings, in all probability, woudn't have
changed the election.

This is a very bad thing.

2. Terrorists are not fighting a religious war. They are fighting the
US and its allies, not Christianity.

No one here says they're fighting Christianity, although that is the
under-current of the conversation. But their fight goes well beyond the "US
and its allies." Rather, it encompasses all of Western civilization and
Western morals and standards.

It was explicitly stated that this was a religious war (see cites
below).

I don't think the target is all Western civilization, or they would be
attacking all democratic nations, which they are clearly not. They are
attacking the interests of the US and its allies. They are very
explicit regarding this in their messages through Al-Jazeera.

What I percieve is that a lot of people in the US can't face that they
are the target because that would mean they did something to deserve
it, and that seems to be unthinkable. Hollywood movies have hammered
the concept of "the good american boy" so hard into their brains, that
many seem unable to see it in any other way. Rather, they would have
the "western civilization", the "modern societies" and everything that
is good be the target, so they can demonize the enemy and expect the
rest of the world to join them in this war. Of course, as the rest of
the world does not see it that way (even in the US's allied countries
most people don't see it that way), then the rest of the world must be
wrong and anti-american, and they are "agains us" because they are not
"with us". Bull****.


"Dan Luke" wrote in message ...
We are in a religious war. We didn't choose it, but we've got it.

(Corky Scott) wrote in message ...
...This thing is religion based, but it's based on an apparently warped
interpretation of the Koran. But that doesn't matter to them. To the
people who believe in this Islamic Jihad, it's the most rational thing
on earth, or they could not be persuaded to die for the cause.

Then I hope the terrorists are better informed than most people in
this group.

Now there is something I really don't want to hang our fate upon.

No one here says they're fighting Christianity, although that is the
under-current of the conversation. But their fight goes well beyond the
"US
and its allies." Rather, it encompasses all of Western civilization
and
Western morals and standards.

It was explicitly stated that this was a religious war (see cites
below).

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
We are in a religious war. We didn't choose it, but we've got it.

I think you are misinterpreting Dan's proclamation. We are in a "religious
war" of the terrorist's choosing -- not our own.

What I percieve is that a lot of people in the US can't face that they
are the target because that would mean they did something to deserve
it, and that seems to be unthinkable.

Your logic escapes me. How does blowing up innocents on trains in Spain,
blowing up innocents in a night club in Bali, and blowing up innocents in a
hotel in Baghdad punish the U.S.? And how did those people "deserve" it?

If the tenuous connection is "they're all allied with the U.S." well, by
your logic this conflict will have to escalate shortly into a world war.

More importantly, nothing you have said should dissuade anyone from feeling
total and utter contempt for the animals who have perpetrated these
atrocities -- against ALL of humanity.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:hzj6c.35852$po.317804@attbi_s52...
"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...
We are in a religious war. We didn't choose it, but we've got it.

I think you are misinterpreting Dan's proclamation. We are in a "religious
war" of the terrorist's choosing -- not our own.

I am arguing that the terrorists are not fighting a religious war, but
a political one.

What I percieve is that a lot of people in the US can't face that they
are the target because that would mean they did something to deserve
it, and that seems to be unthinkable.

Your logic escapes me. How does blowing up innocents on trains in Spain,
blowing up innocents in a night club in Bali, and blowing up innocents in a
hotel in Baghdad punish the U.S.? And how did those people "deserve" it?
If the tenuous connection is "they're all allied with the U.S." well, by
your logic this conflict will have to escalate shortly into a world war.

You actually think the rest of the world is allied to the US??? You
must be kidding, right? Tell me, how many terrorist attacks have you
seen on Swizerland? Oh, but they are a democracy, aren't they? They
are a "western nation", aren't they? They share your values, don't
they? They treat their women as equals, don't they?

And I wouldn't call it a "tenuous connection". It is exactly what
Al-Quaeda says they're doing, and it is exactly what they *are* doing.
But it doesn't matter, people in the US just don't want to see it.
They cannot see themselves as "the bad guys", no matter how many
millions in the world scream in despair. Of course I am not saying the
terrorists are the good guys, but they *are* rational, and they *have*
a motive, and no, it has nothing to do with religion, as much as the
US is rational about this war, and they have a motive, and no, it has
nothing to do with freedom. Both the religion and the freedom
"motives" are nothing but propaganda on both sides. You chose to
believe it. Did you also buy the WMD argument?

More importantly, nothing you have said should dissuade anyone from feeling
total and utter contempt for the animals who have perpetrated these
atrocities -- against ALL of humanity.

Of course not!!!!!!!!!!! As much as I hate what the US has done to so
many countries, I felt absolutely horrified when WTC happened, and I
also felt terribly sorry for the Spaniards, and I totally adhere to
your original statement "We Are All Spaniards"!!! Terrorists attack
innocent people, regardless what their governments have done, and they
DONT deserve it!

I am not by any means trying to justify terrorism, I am only trying
explain what I percieve is a very narrow and self-centerd view of what
is happening. and that this view is causing more harm than good.

Hi Alex,


The terrorists must now perceive that elections and troop
deployments can be influenced by indiscriminate attacks on innocent
"soft"
targets.

Then I hope the terrorists are better informed than most people in
this group.

You are not really thinking this to be remotely possible, are you? The
average terrorist does not posess much more information about world
affairs than what his leaders choose to tell him. While OBL might be
aware of the political situation in Spain and the little support the
military involvement had already before the attack, his troops
certainly only "know" exactly what was stated above: The attack got the
spanish troops out of Iraq, because we frightened them proper. It was a
great victory for holy Islam.

A very bad thing.

What I percieve is that a lot of people in the US can't face that
they
are the target because that would mean they did something to deserve
it, and that seems to be unthinkable.

What makes you think, that if someone is a target, it definitely means,
he deserves it???

If you are shot by a criminal, you obviously deserve it?? Now that's a
strange kind of logic.

regards,
Friedrich

"Friedrich Ostertag" wrote in message ...
Then I hope the terrorists are better informed than most people in
this group.

You are not really thinking this to be remotely possible, are you? The
average terrorist does not posess much more information about world
affairs than what his leaders choose to tell him. While OBL might be
aware of the political situation in Spain and the little support the
military involvement had already before the attack, his troops
certainly only "know" exactly what was stated above: The attack got the
spanish troops out of Iraq, because we frightened them proper. It was a
great victory for holy Islam.

I don't know... maybe they read the papers?

I think you can safely bet that Al-Quaeda operatives are highly
trained, intelligent people. WTC wasn't done by brute force. It's nice
to think that the enemy is crazy and attacks randomly and is
illiterate. It's difficult to accept that an intelligent person would
have a motive to kill hundreds of inocents. Of course, a motive valid
for him, in his frame of reference. The problem is precisely this:
understanding their frame of reference. What I see here is that people
don't want to do the effort. So they accept whatever their government
tells them (WMD) in order to rationalize the vengeance they feel they
have a right to (and I'm not saying they don't).

But some people stop and try to get a broader perspective, to rise
above the hatred and thirst of vengeance. Maybe if enough people do
that, then this madness can stop. I think the Spaniards have done just
that. They were brave enough to put an end to it, even when they could
have reacted with violence the way the US did. They did the right
thing and I admire them for that.

I only wish Jay's subject line were true.

What makes you think, that if someone is a target, it definitely means,
he deserves it???
If you are shot by a criminal, you obviously deserve it?? Now that's a
strange kind of logic.

Of course not. I don't think innocent people deserved to be killed.
But I do think the US governments have done great harm to people
throughout the world, and that they are now recieving a reaction to
some of it. That doesn't mean that the US deserved WTC. Only that
there may be a logic (however sick) behind it.