which frequencies are all?

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

But approach is not associated with any particular airport. Even
though a given approach may serve only one airport, it's not
associated with that airport, it's associated with a center.


How so? Approach tends to be located at the airport it was established to
serve, not at a center.



This is why you may see approach and
departure on the same frequency.


I don't see the connection.

In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

But approach is not associated with any particular airport. Even
though a given approach may serve only one airport, it's not
associated with that airport, it's associated with a center.

How so? Approach tends to be located at the airport it was established to
serve, not at a center.

True enough in general, but 'round here most approaches have been
borged into either NorCal (nee Sierra, nee Bay / Sacto / Monterey /
Travis / Stockton / etc.) or SoCal Approaches. Same service, but served
out of anonymous barns somewhere in lovely Suburban Sacramento and the
even lovelier Southlands, well away from most of the airports they
serve.

Not that that's terribly relevant to the original point, but never
mind. It's just that the mental image changed almost overnight from a
bunch of people (some of whom you'd actually see occasionally getting
lunch from the local roach coach or talking at local meetings) sitting
around at Oakland or Sacto or Travis in buildings you could see every
time you flew, to a much larger bunch of people you never ever see, a
long way from most airports. Almost like a Center, in fact (but at
least I've *seen* Oakland Center and met some of the people there...).

This is why you may see approach and
departure on the same frequency.


I don't see the connection.

Me neither.

Hamish

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...

True enough in general, but 'round here most approaches have been
borged into either NorCal (nee Sierra, nee Bay / Sacto / Monterey /
Travis / Stockton / etc.) or SoCal Approaches. Same service, but
served out of anonymous barns somewhere in lovely Suburban
Sacramento and the even lovelier Southlands, well away from most
of the airports they serve.


And not at a Center.

In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...

True enough in general, but 'round here most approaches have been
borged into either NorCal (nee Sierra, nee Bay / Sacto / Monterey /
Travis / Stockton / etc.) or SoCal Approaches. Same service, but
served out of anonymous barns somewhere in lovely Suburban
Sacramento and the even lovelier Southlands, well away from most
of the airports they serve.

And not at a Center.

No one in this thread except maybe Bill Denton ever said approaches
were associated with (or "at") a Center.

However, it's true that there's a tendency in and around the larger
metropolitan areas of the US for approaches *not* to be associated
with, let alone at, a particular airport. I'm based in one such area.

Hamish

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...

No one in this thread except maybe Bill Denton ever said approaches
were associated with (or "at") a Center.


Yes, and his was the message I responded to.



However, it's true that there's a tendency in and around the larger
metropolitan areas of the US for approaches *not* to be associated
with, let alone at, a particular airport. I'm based in one such area.


Some TRACONs in close proximity have been combined into single facilities
not located on airports, but approach control facilities are still
associated with airports. After all, providing IFR services to airports is
their reason for being.

You will note that I said "associated with", not "located at".

My use of the term "center" may not have been 100% correct, but it was the
best term I could think of, and it's irrelevant anyway. The point is not
what "approach" is associated with, it's the fact that "approach" is not
associated with a specific airport.

Consider the following pairs of approach frequencies and Chicago airport
groups:

118.4 - KMDW, KIGQ, KCGX (now closed)

119.0 - KORD

133.5 - KDPA, KARR, KDKB

120.55 - KPWK, KUGN, 3CK, C81

119.35 - KLOT, KJOT, 1C5

Which makes my point that a given "approach" frequently serves more than one
airport.

And keep in mind that when you call any of those guys up, it's "Chicago
Approach...", not "O'Hare Approach" or "Midway Approach". More evidence that
"approach" is not associated with a specific airport.

Which means my advice to the original poster is still valid...


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

But approach is not associated with any particular airport. Even
though a given approach may serve only one airport, it's not
associated with that airport, it's associated with a center.


How so? Approach tends to be located at the airport it was established to
serve, not at a center.



This is why you may see approach and
departure on the same frequency.


I don't see the connection.

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

You will note that I said "associated with", not "located at".


I note that you said, "Even though a given approach may serve only one
airport, it's not associated with that airport, it's associated with a
center." Not only are such facilities associated with the airport they
serve, they are located on them.



My use of the term "center" may not have been 100% correct,
but it was the best term I could think of, and it's irrelevant anyway.


It was 0% correct.



The point is not what "approach" is associated with, it's the fact
that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.


That's not a fact, that's your opinion. While you're certainly entitled to
your own opinions you are not entitled to your own facts.



Consider the following pairs of approach frequencies and
Chicago airport groups:

118.4 - KMDW, KIGQ, KCGX (now closed)

119.0 - KORD

133.5 - KDPA, KARR, KDKB

120.55 - KPWK, KUGN, 3CK, C81

119.35 - KLOT, KJOT, 1C5

Which makes my point that a given "approach" frequently serves
more than one airport.

And keep in mind that when you call any of those guys up, it's "Chicago
Approach...", not "O'Hare Approach" or "Midway Approach".


Well, since you believe an approach control is associated with a center, why
don't you call these guys "Chicago Center" when you call them up?



More evidence that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.

Which means my advice to the original poster is still valid...


Approach controls ARE associated with airports, that's the reason they were
created.

Let's look at an example of a middle of the road approach control facility;
Madison TRACON in Madison, Wisconsin. Madison approach serves and is
located on Truax Field in Madison. They also serve eight other airports
with SIAPs in the area, but about 85% of MSN TRACON's traffic is generated
by Truax Field. MSN TRACON was created for the purpose of handling
instrument operations at Truax Field. Once it was created it was in a
position to provide services to these other airports and does so, but it
would never have been created if Truax Field was not there. Without Truax
there would be no Madison TRACON and Chicago Center would be providing IFR
services to these other airports on a full-time basis.

If you want to argue semantics, knock yourself out. But you'll have to do it
by yourself 'cause I have a life.

The point is, if you get an ATIS message that all frequencies are combined
on 999.9 for a specific airport, approach WILL NOT be included in the
services that can be reached on that frequency. Because approach is not
associated with any specific airport even though it may only serve a single
airport.

You mentioned Madison, WI. If you are flying into KMSN do you call up
"Madison approach" or "Truax approach"?

I rest my case...



"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

You will note that I said "associated with", not "located at".


I note that you said, "Even though a given approach may serve only one
airport, it's not associated with that airport, it's associated with a
center." Not only are such facilities associated with the airport they
serve, they are located on them.



My use of the term "center" may not have been 100% correct,
but it was the best term I could think of, and it's irrelevant anyway.


It was 0% correct.



The point is not what "approach" is associated with, it's the fact
that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.


That's not a fact, that's your opinion. While you're certainly entitled
to
your own opinions you are not entitled to your own facts.



Consider the following pairs of approach frequencies and
Chicago airport groups:

118.4 - KMDW, KIGQ, KCGX (now closed)

119.0 - KORD

133.5 - KDPA, KARR, KDKB

120.55 - KPWK, KUGN, 3CK, C81

119.35 - KLOT, KJOT, 1C5

Which makes my point that a given "approach" frequently serves
more than one airport.

And keep in mind that when you call any of those guys up, it's "Chicago
Approach...", not "O'Hare Approach" or "Midway Approach".


Well, since you believe an approach control is associated with a center,
why
don't you call these guys "Chicago Center" when you call them up?



More evidence that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.

Which means my advice to the original poster is still valid...


Approach controls ARE associated with airports, that's the reason they
were
created.

Let's look at an example of a middle of the road approach control
facility;
Madison TRACON in Madison, Wisconsin. Madison approach serves and is
located on Truax Field in Madison. They also serve eight other airports
with SIAPs in the area, but about 85% of MSN TRACON's traffic is generated
by Truax Field. MSN TRACON was created for the purpose of handling
instrument operations at Truax Field. Once it was created it was in a
position to provide services to these other airports and does so, but it
would never have been created if Truax Field was not there. Without Truax
there would be no Madison TRACON and Chicago Center would be providing IFR
services to these other airports on a full-time basis.

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

If you want to argue semantics, knock yourself out. But you'll
have to do it by yourself 'cause I have a life.


I argue with facts and logic.



Because approach is not associated with any specific airport
even though it may only serve a single airport.


Sorry, that's simply not the case. I take it you're not a pilot?



You mentioned Madison, WI. If you are flying into KMSN do you
call up "Madison approach" or "Truax approach"?

I rest my case...


You call "Madison Approach", just as you call "Madison Tower" and "Madison
Ground. Would you also make the case that tower and ground are not
associated with any specific airport?

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 15:17:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Approach controls ARE associated with airports, that's the reason they were
created.

Let's look at an example of a middle of the road approach control facility;
Madison TRACON in Madison, Wisconsin. Madison approach serves and is
located on Truax Field in Madison. They also serve eight other airports
with SIAPs in the area, but about 85% of MSN TRACON's traffic is generated
by Truax Field. MSN TRACON was created for the purpose of handling
instrument operations at Truax Field. Once it was created it was in a
position to provide services to these other airports and does so, but it
would never have been created if Truax Field was not there. Without Truax
there would be no Madison TRACON and Chicago Center would be providing IFR
services to these other airports on a full-time basis.


I have a side question to this... Is it ever the case that an approach
is created because the combination of many small airports makes it a
good idea/worthwhile? I'm specifically thinking of Cape TRACON in
this instance. It seems to control a mismash of airports, MVY, ACK,
HYA, etc. Or maybe sometime in the past it was more tied to a
particular airport and then as traffic grew it expanded its reach?

I guess those sorts of things are pretty much only decided on the
basis of traffic volume?

aw