Moving to CA

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 20:39:06 -0400, Ishrat Zahid
wrote:

I'm relocating to CA from MA in next few weeks and leaving my old flying
club here at LWM.
Wondering if I can get some good recommendation for flying clubs in the
bay area?
I'll be in Milpitas/San Jose area...

I believe that RHV will be closer to you than PAO driving-wise, but I'd
have to look at a map to be sure.

I have flown a bit out of both airports... here are some notes:

RHV

- two runways (3100-ish feet long)
- helicopter training is available
- no restaurant on-field
- airspace butts up against foothills to the east, and SJC to the
northwest. There are basically two fixed-wing corridors you can fly into
it with - "Caleveras" and "UTC" - without talking to SJC.
- IMO, a boring selection of airplanes to kick the tires on, other than
having about 400% more helicopters than PAO... PAO has much more variety
for the airplane nut - Pilatus PC12s, T-34s, Sky Arrows (2 - this is the
airplane that made me want to learn to fly), Scottish Bulldogs (2),
floatplanes, Meridians - the list goes on and on. RHV is a huge
collection of C172/182s, Archer/Arrows, a smattering of Cirri (lease/own
only - no rentals), and decrepit twins. (Dons flame-retardant underwear,
but hey - this is how it seems to me whenever I walk the flightline...)


PAO

- decent restaurant/espresso shop on-field ("Abundant Air"). Really,
isn't this the most important airport feature?
- one runway; about the same length as RHV's but it seems shorter
somehow. Plus, it's not as well paved/level. Gets reeeeally busy at
times. I don't think I was ever called "Number 5 for Rwy 31" at RHV but
it's happened more than once at PAO in my short experience there. I miss
that other runway that RHV has.
- more complex/cramped airspace - just look at a sectional or terminal
chart. I'm still getting used to this (been flying out of there since
Nov. 03). You have Moffett to the southeast (military/NASA field) and
San Carlos immediately to the NW, followed by SFO. Oh, Hayward is over
there to the east too, just a few miles away.
- West Valley Flying Club has several Cirri for rent - both SR20s and
SR22s. This is why I joined this club; I can rent a totally
state-of-the-art airplane for $149 an hour ($175 with TCAS). Checkout
rates are less than that, at least in the winter. The CFIs I've talked
to are professional and passionate about their craft.

In the end (i.e. after spending about 300 hours at RHV and 20 at PAO),
I'd pick PAO for my fixed-wing needs - and I'd pick WVFC as a Base Of
Operations. However - for whatever reason CFIs seem to be more expensive
at PAO than RHV, so if your flying budget is really a budget then RHV
might be better if your needs involve a CFI.


Note that all of the above, along with a buck seventy-five, might get
you a single-shot espresso at Abundant Air, so treat the value of my
advice with this valuation 8^) .

Dave Blevins
-

- two runways (3100-ish feet long)
- helicopter training is available
- no restaurant on-field

But the area is surrounded by any number of restaurants.

- airspace butts up against foothills to the east, and SJC to the
northwest. There are basically two fixed-wing corridors you can fly into
it with - "Caleveras" and "UTC" - without talking to SJC.

Calaveras, UTC are just one of the few 'corridors' as you call them that you
can fly without talking to NORCAL or SJC, if you look at a sectional you'd
see there are quite a bit more. Additionally, let me take the time to point
out that learning to talk to SJC and Norcal is just good solid experience
for any pilot - nothing is worse than having a private pilot flying around
who is afraid to talk to anybody on the radio, except for their home field.

- IMO, a boring selection of airplanes to kick the tires on, other than
having about 400% more helicopters than PAO

For God's sake, man,,,, if you find the process of flying 'boring' maybe you
are in the wrong sport?

??? I spend LOTS of this time at this field... If, as you say, RHV has
"400% more helicopters than PAO",,,, then PAO must have only ONE helicopter,
because there really aren't that many helicopters on the field. Most of the
activity and presence is fixed-wing from tail draggers to trainers, to
twins.

... - the list goes on and on. RHV is a huge
collection of C172/182s, Archer/Arrows, a smattering of Cirri (lease/own
only - no rentals), and decrepit twins. (Dons flame-retardant underwear,
but hey - this is how it seems to me whenever I walk the flightline...)

Oh geez,,, have you ever SEEN RHV??? there are twins, taildraggers, new
Cessnas as well as older models the field, but yes, there are also older
(but well-maintained) planes there, also. So, if you are the kind who can
only impress the ladies with that shiny new plane and not the glory of
flight (regardless of how one gets UP there),, maybe shiny, new planes are
what YOU need,,, but they are certainly not a necessity for the original
poster who wants to learn how to fly and discover the magic of flight - for
that you only need a decent well-maintained plane, determination and 'the
dream',,, that's it.....

Oops wait,,, I think I just figured you out.... Here's the REAL problem you
have with RHV - unlike PAO (where the rich folks play), there are no BMW's,
Mercedes' and their ilk infecting the parking lots and GASP there are NO
nearby espresso/latte' stands ,,,, and GASP AND HORRORS, the area that
surrounds RHV is ethnically diverse! ;0)

Here's what you'll find at RHV (though, of course there are always a few
exceptions); pilots driving well-worn, older model cars 'cause they are
saving their bucks for that plane they have in the hangar, or for their
flying lessons - because in the end, it isn't the fancy car, or the flash,
or the praise/accolades they are looking for,,, they just LOVE to fly. All
ya need for that is the determination and a mechanically-sound airplane,
doesn't have to be brand-new and flashy. Like that bumper sticker
says,,,,,, "Flight,,,, all the rest is just 'details'".

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:00:14 GMT, "Cecil Chapman"
wrote:


- two runways (3100-ish feet long)
- helicopter training is available
- no restaurant on-field

But the area is surrounded by any number of restaurants.

I still give PAO the thumbs up - I can grab a quick sandwich right there
next to the FBO. Now, granted, RHV has a nearby In 'n Out which gets
bonus points I guess. But I have to drive there - it's too far to walk.

IMO RHV's management is missing a bet by not making it easier for a
restaurant to occupy the upper level of the gub'ment building there.

- airspace butts up against foothills to the east, and SJC to the
northwest. There are basically two fixed-wing corridors you can fly into
it with - "Caleveras" and "UTC" - without talking to SJC.

Calaveras, UTC are just one of the few 'corridors' as you call them that you
can fly without talking to NORCAL or SJC, if you look at a sectional you'd
see there are quite a bit more.

Nonetheless the ones I mentioned are what probably 90% of the
inbound/outbound VFR traffic use. (BTW I *have* been known to look at a
sectional occasionally, but mostly they're great for wrapping aviation
presents. )

- IMO, a boring selection of airplanes to kick the tires on, other than
having about 400% more helicopters than PAO

For God's sake, man,,,, if you find the process of flying 'boring' maybe you
are in the wrong sport?

I don't like 30 year old airplanes with scratchy radios and "INOP"
placards plastered all over the place. I prefer to spend a little more $
and fly something nicer and newer. But really, my point was that PAO has
a lot more interesting planes, both in the air and on the ground, on any
given day - to ME. Remember, I said in my post that it was MY OPINION
and MY EXPERIENCE. Clearly yours is different - no worries, but I feel
like I'm being attacked.

??? I spend LOTS of this time at this field... If, as you say, RHV has
"400% more helicopters than PAO",,,, then PAO must have only ONE helicopter,
because there really aren't that many helicopters on the field. Most of the
activity and presence is fixed-wing from tail draggers to trainers, to
twins.

My math was a little buggered. To be clear: to my knowledge there are no
rental/training helicopters at PAO, while there are three at RHV.

Oh geez,,, have you ever SEEN RHV??? there are twins, taildraggers, new
Cessnas as well as older models the field, but yes, there are also older
(but well-maintained) planes there, also.

Yawn. The most interesting plane that was there for a long time, that
you could walk up to anyway, was an old Navion that hadn't flown in a
looooong time. Beat-to-pieces 182s and Archers are boooooooring. And not
a SINGLE New Technology airplane exists on the entire field that can be
rented. PAO has four that I can think of, and even SQL has two or three.

So, if you are the kind who can
only impress the ladies with that shiny new plane and not the glory of
flight (regardless of how one gets UP there),, maybe shiny, new planes are
what YOU need,,, but they are certainly not a necessity for the original
poster who wants to learn how to fly and discover the magic of flight - for
that you only need a decent well-maintained plane, determination and 'the
dream',,, that's it.....

Whatever. And, BTW wtf is this nonsense about impressing the ladies with
an airplane? I fly for the challenge, not to get laid. That's what my
giant pilot's watch is for!

Oops wait,,, I think I just figured you out....

Nnnnnk, but thanks for playing. You don't have me Figured Out.

Here's the REAL problem you
have with RHV - unlike PAO (where the rich folks play), there are no BMW's,
Mercedes' and their ilk infecting the parking lots and GASP there are NO
nearby espresso/latte' stands ,,,, and GASP AND HORRORS, the area that
surrounds RHV is ethnically diverse! ;0)

Actually I have wondered if the "Ilk" are why airplanes and CFIs cost
more there than at RHV...

And there are TWO Starbucks in the shopping center across Capitol/Tully
from RHV. So there.

Here's what you'll find at RHV (though, of course there are always a few
exceptions); pilots driving well-worn, older model cars 'cause they are
saving their bucks for that plane they have in the hangar, or for their
flying lessons - because in the end, it isn't the fancy car, or the flash,
or the praise/accolades they are looking for,,, they just LOVE to fly. All
ya need for that is the determination and a mechanically-sound airplane,
doesn't have to be brand-new and flashy. Like that bumper sticker
says,,,,,, "Flight,,,, all the rest is just 'details'".

OK, OK. I flew out of RHV for my first four years; now I'm at PAO for
fixed wing stuff, so maybe I was just bored with RHV in general.
Criminy, don't get your panties all in a wad. None of what I said
implies that I don't love to fly. I just love different aspects of it
than you do! Jeez!

---

I'll close by mentioning one thing I forgot to mention about PAO - I'm
still not used to flying over water all the time in the pattern. With so
many airplanes typically in the air, it's difficult to fly a very tight,
"safe" pattern (in case of an engine failure or whatever), and that
water looks cold from 800'.

dB.

I still give PAO the thumbs up - I can grab a quick sandwich right there
next to the FBO. Now, granted, RHV has a nearby In 'n Out which gets

Yes, but the sandwich will cost you a million dollars at PAO!

But I have to drive there - it's too far to walk.

Woosy! grin


Actually I have wondered if the "Ilk" are why airplanes and CFIs cost
more there than at RHV...

Survey says............ "Yes"

But then again, there's San Carlos which has similiar HOBBS rates to PAO..
If I were to be serious for a moment, I guess that's what bugs me most about
some of the local flying clubs; ya pay the monthly dues AND enrollment fee
and you STILL pay higher HOBBS rates.

given day - to ME. Remember, I said in my post that it was MY OPINION
and MY EXPERIENCE. Clearly yours is different - no worries, but I feel
like I'm being attacked.

Yes,,, but your opinion is wrong and I felt it was my duty to point it
out... '-)

And there are TWO Starbucks in the shopping center across Capitol/Tully
from RHV. So there.

Yes, but they are generally not in plain view, so I don't find their
presence as 'obscene' as I normally would '-)

I don't like 30 year old airplanes with scratchy radios and "INOP"
placards plastered all over the place. I prefer to spend a little more $
and fly something nicer and newer. But really, my point was that PAO has
a lot more interesting planes, both in the air and on the ground, on any

But that simply isn't true,,, there are perfectly nice (AND new - especially
at Tradewinds) airplanes at RHV. Even the older trainers at Nice Air are in
respectable shape.

OK, OK. I flew out of RHV for my first four years; now I'm at PAO for
fixed wing stuff, so maybe I was just bored with RHV in general.

If you laid off the Starbucks caffeine,,, you'd 'come down' and then flying
would be exciting again, no matter where you flew ! ;-)

Criminy, don't get your panties all in a wad.

Hey!!! How did you know what I was wearing for underwear??? THAT'S what I
get for waking up at three in the morning and trying to dress in the
dark,,, knew something felt different....... :-/.

I'll close by mentioning one thing I forgot to mention about PAO - I'm
still not used to flying over water all the time in the pattern. With so
many airplanes typically in the air, it's difficult to fly a very tight,
"safe" pattern (in case of an engine failure or whatever), and that
water looks cold from 800'.

Flying over the water has never been one of my favorite things, either.
Don't know if you have your instrument rating yet, but assuming you
don't.... Just wait until you do an instrument approach into Monterey,
Norcal takes you WAAAAYYYY out over the ocean to start the
approach,,,,,,,,,,,,, YIKES!!!! Also the Watsonville instrument approaches
give me the willies too for a similar reason. For some weird reason, flying
the Bay Tour (with only Crissy Field as the only likely emergency landing
site,,, aside from a ditching in the bay) doesn't 'bug' me,,, go figure.....


--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:00:14 GMT, "Cecil Chapman"
wrote:


- two runways (3100-ish feet long)
- helicopter training is available
- no restaurant on-field

But the area is surrounded by any number of restaurants.



IMO RHV's management is missing a bet by not making it easier for a
restaurant to occupy the upper level of the gub'ment building there.

- airspace butts up against foothills to the east, and SJC to the
northwest. There are basically two fixed-wing corridors you can fly
into
it with - "Caleveras" and "UTC" - without talking to SJC.

Calaveras, UTC are just one of the few 'corridors' as you call them that
you
can fly without talking to NORCAL or SJC, if you look at a sectional
you'd
see there are quite a bit more.

Nonetheless the ones I mentioned are what probably 90% of the
inbound/outbound VFR traffic use. (BTW I *have* been known to look at a
sectional occasionally, but mostly they're great for wrapping aviation
presents. )

- IMO, a boring selection of airplanes to kick the tires on, other than
having about 400% more helicopters than PAO

For God's sake, man,,,, if you find the process of flying 'boring' maybe
you
are in the wrong sport?




??? I spend LOTS of this time at this field... If, as you say, RHV has
"400% more helicopters than PAO",,,, then PAO must have only ONE
helicopter,
because there really aren't that many helicopters on the field. Most of
the
activity and presence is fixed-wing from tail draggers to trainers, to
twins.

My math was a little buggered. To be clear: to my knowledge there are no
rental/training helicopters at PAO, while there are three at RHV.

Oh geez,,, have you ever SEEN RHV??? there are twins, taildraggers, new
Cessnas as well as older models the field, but yes, there are also older
(but well-maintained) planes there, also.

Yawn. The most interesting plane that was there for a long time, that
you could walk up to anyway, was an old Navion that hadn't flown in a
looooong time. Beat-to-pieces 182s and Archers are boooooooring. And not
a SINGLE New Technology airplane exists on the entire field that can be
rented. PAO has four that I can think of, and even SQL has two or three.

So, if you are the kind who can
only impress the ladies with that shiny new plane and not the glory of
flight (regardless of how one gets UP there),, maybe shiny, new planes
are
what YOU need,,, but they are certainly not a necessity for the original
poster who wants to learn how to fly and discover the magic of flight -
for
that you only need a decent well-maintained plane, determination and 'the
dream',,, that's it.....

Whatever. And, BTW wtf is this nonsense about impressing the ladies with
an airplane? I fly for the challenge, not to get laid. That's what my
giant pilot's watch is for!

Oops wait,,, I think I just figured you out....

Nnnnnk, but thanks for playing. You don't have me Figured Out.

Here's the REAL problem you
have with RHV - unlike PAO (where the rich folks play), there are no
BMW's,
Mercedes' and their ilk infecting the parking lots and GASP there are
NO
nearby espresso/latte' stands ,,,, and GASP AND HORRORS, the area that
surrounds RHV is ethnically diverse! ;0)




Here's what you'll find at RHV (though, of course there are always a few
exceptions); pilots driving well-worn, older model cars 'cause they are
saving their bucks for that plane they have in the hangar, or for their
flying lessons - because in the end, it isn't the fancy car, or the
flash,
or the praise/accolades they are looking for,,, they just LOVE to fly.
All
ya need for that is the determination and a mechanically-sound airplane,
doesn't have to be brand-new and flashy. Like that bumper sticker
says,,,,,, "Flight,,,, all the rest is just 'details'".

None of what I said
implies that I don't love to fly. I just love different aspects of it
than you do! Jeez!

---



dB.

writes:

IMO RHV's management is missing a bet by not making it easier for a
restaurant to occupy the upper level of the gub'ment building there.

The conspiracy mongers amongst us think it's by design, tied into
the ever present efforts to close RHV.

-jav

In article ,
Javier Henderson wrote:
writes:

IMO RHV's management is missing a bet by not making it easier for a
restaurant to occupy the upper level of the gub'ment building there.

The conspiracy mongers amongst us think it's by design, tied into
the ever present efforts to close RHV.

Not sure if it is still the case, but back when the vote on closing
RHV was before the country supervisors, it was reported that all
the businesses were on month-to-month leases to discourage long
term investment.

True or not, RHV could use some TLC.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.panix.com/~jac

Glad someone said something about this. I had a restaurant owner (who owns
another popular airport cafe) interested in looking at RHV. Unfortunately,
the county (in its' ongoing efforts to 'sabotage' any chance of getting the
airport restaurant started up again) will only give a month to month lease.
The old Red Baron needs LOTS of work and capital investment on the inside
and no business person is going to sink all that capital into a building
that only offers a month-to-month lease - and the county know this. Mark my
words... 'Mayor Daley' clones, exist everywhere! :-(

Don't know if it will do any good, but you started me thinking and I'm going
to write our 'governator' about what's going on. However it works out, at
least I'd feel good giving it another try.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

I'm curious, why does the county have this attitude
towards there being a restaurant on the field? The
sense I get (no factual basis, just "sense") is that
Santa Clara County values its airports (all four!),
actually sustaining them and even making improvements. RHV
and PAO are both heavily used, as is SJC, obviously.
Q99, um, maybe not so much, but the county even put
money into that recently to build hangars.

I know there are people who want RHV closed,
like every other airport, but is there any possibility
of that happening near-term? If not, why would the
county want to keep a restaurant out of the "terminal?"
Fear of increased traffic?

Just curious...

-- dave j

PS -- speaking of airports under attack: I feel
for the people at KCCR who seem to have their fight
escalated once again due to the accident on 680
earlier this week. (It kills me, because the news
reports were all over it, referring also back to the
time an aircraft crashed into a nearby mall back in
1985. I'm thinking "1985? How many people have died
on that stretch of highway in cars since then?"

Wow, I thought this was a rather inocuous thread; a relatively
safe place to post, but alas, I think someone was just insinuated
to be classist and racist based solely on support of his favorite
aerodrome.

For the record, they're both fine airports. The wet rate for
your favorite airplane is higher at PAO. That's a fact. There
are restaurants near RHV that are good, and there are restaurants
near PAO that are good, too. Lunch near PAO will cost you more,
however.

Both airports can get busy, and you might wait at PAO sometimes,
though I have never waited more than 2-3 minutes unless waiting
for an IFR clearance (and that's going to be the same PAO or RHV)

Oddly enough, and worth repeating although it's been said already,
the weather at the two airports is quite a bit different. It's
hotter at RHV than PAO in the summer (note the Bay). There's
more moisture activity (fog, low clouds) at PAO than RHV (note
the Bay). Both airports have GPS approaches, and PAO has a
VOR approach which you can't get most of the time, anyway.
Some people think PAO has frequent difficult crosswinds. I
dunno... it's what I grew up with.

I have seen [nice|beater] [foreign|domesetic] [automobiles|aircraft]
at both airports.

I still stand by my statement that the traffic to get to RHV,
especially at peak and near-peak times (like cutting the afternoon
at work a little short) is the main reason I prefer PAO. I'm
starting from Santa Clara (office) and that's just how it works
out. Also, from Campbell (home), which is a good ten miles
closer to RHV than PAO, it's a faster drive on weekends.

-- dave j

Like Dave says. Honestly if people want to choose their airport
based on the preponderance, or not, of certain makes of car,
then that's their privilege, but it strikes me as odd.

Traffic (highway variety) is definitely a factor. My office is
about equidistant from the two (237/880) but PAO is
20 mins in normal rush hour traffic, and RHV is more like
45. From home (Mountain View) PAO is 10 mins just about
any time, and RHV doesn't bear thinking about at busy times.

My experience is mainly with PAO. Things can get a bit hectic
on fine weekend mornings, but the rest of the time there are
no significant delays for VFR. Both airports have three or more
decent flying clubs (based on what I've heard anyway). Sundance
at PAO is where I trained and I would recommend it to anyone.

If you want *interesting* aircraft at your field, go to LVK - home
to numerous warbirds, for which PAO and RHV don't have
long enough runways.

John

"Dave Jacobowitz" wrote in message
om...
Wow, I thought this was a rather inocuous thread; a relatively
safe place to post, but alas, I think someone was just insinuated
to be classist and racist based solely on support of his favorite
aerodrome.

For the record, they're both fine airports. The wet rate for
your favorite airplane is higher at PAO. That's a fact. There
are restaurants near RHV that are good, and there are restaurants
near PAO that are good, too. Lunch near PAO will cost you more,
however.

Both airports can get busy, and you might wait at PAO sometimes,
though I have never waited more than 2-3 minutes unless waiting
for an IFR clearance (and that's going to be the same PAO or RHV)

Oddly enough, and worth repeating although it's been said already,
the weather at the two airports is quite a bit different. It's
hotter at RHV than PAO in the summer (note the Bay). There's
more moisture activity (fog, low clouds) at PAO than RHV (note
the Bay). Both airports have GPS approaches, and PAO has a
VOR approach which you can't get most of the time, anyway.
Some people think PAO has frequent difficult crosswinds. I
dunno... it's what I grew up with.

I have seen [nice|beater] [foreign|domesetic] [automobiles|aircraft]
at both airports.

I still stand by my statement that the traffic to get to RHV,
especially at peak and near-peak times (like cutting the afternoon
at work a little short) is the main reason I prefer PAO. I'm
starting from Santa Clara (office) and that's just how it works
out. Also, from Campbell (home), which is a good ten miles
closer to RHV than PAO, it's a faster drive on weekends.

-- dave j