ATC clears takeoff aircraft for midair

I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than HPN--FRG
also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think about that
airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect but the
controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby aircraft even
though it's not their responsibility. What would your solution be?

I hear what you're saying, but to call non-radar airspace such as MOST Class
D "controlled" is (again, IMHO) wrong.

Call it "semi-controlled" or "ground separation only" or "we hope to see you
with our binoculars" -- do anything but call it "controlled"...cuz it ain't.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Your're right. I should have said TRSA.
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in message
...

I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than
HPN--FRG also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when
I think about that airport not having a control tower. It's far from
perfect but the controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of
nearby aircraft even though it's not their responsibility. What
would your solution be? Make Class C the first airspace
designation with towers? Make all Class D's Class C's? Give
Class D ATC separation responsibilities? The last solution
would require prohibitively expensive radar upgrades.


ATC doesn't provide VFR/VFR separation in Class C airspace either.






----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

I see that as more of a problem with educating the pilots as opposed to a
problem with the airspace itself. But I see your point.

Marco

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:%Q5pc.241$gr.25776@attbi_s52...
I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than
HPN--FRG
also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think about that
airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect but the
controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby aircraft even
though it's not their responsibility. What would your solution be?

I hear what you're saying, but to call non-radar airspace such as MOST
Class
D "controlled" is (again, IMHO) wrong.

Call it "semi-controlled" or "ground separation only" or "we hope to see
you
with our binoculars" -- do anything but call it "controlled"...cuz it
ain't.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"






----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

In article %Q5pc.241$gr.25776@attbi_s52,
"Jay Honeck" wrote:

I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than HPN--FRG
also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think about that
airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect but the
controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby aircraft even
though it's not their responsibility. What would your solution be?

I hear what you're saying, but to call non-radar airspace such as MOST Class
D "controlled" is (again, IMHO) wrong.

Call it "semi-controlled" or "ground separation only" or "we hope to see you
with our binoculars" -- do anything but call it "controlled"...cuz it ain't.

Controlled has a very specific meaning -- it means ATC can provide
separation services to IFR aircraft. It includes classes A, B, C, D,
and E (at least in the US).

On Fri, 14 May 2004 09:59:38 -0400, "Marco Leon"
mleon(at)optonline.net wrote:

I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than HPN--FRG
also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think about that
airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect but the
controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby aircraft even
though it's not their responsibility. What would your solution be? Make
Class C the first airspace designation with towers? Make all Class D's Class
C's? Give Class D ATC separation responsibilities? The last solution would
require prohibitively expensive radar upgrades.

Marco

I agree with Jay about Class D being the most dangerous airspace to
fly in. That doesn't mean that you're wrong, though. Even though I
believe that they are dangerous areas, I do not advocate eliminating
the towers and I do understand the problems associated with upgrading
to Class C or even D with radar. I think that we simply need to
recognize that the ingredients for problems are all there and we need
to be extra diligent while flying there. It's just the nature of the
beast. I don't have a better solution for the problem.

Rich Russell

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:%Q5pc.241$gr.25776@attbi_s52...

I hear what you're saying, but to call non-radar airspace such as
MOST Class D "controlled" is (again, IMHO) wrong.


I don't have any figures, but I'd expect most Class D airspace does have
radar coverage. In any case, Class D airspace that does not have radar
coverage is just as controlled as Class D airspace that does.



Call it "semi-controlled" or "ground separation only" or "we hope to
see you with our binoculars" -- do anything but call it "controlled"
...cuz it ain't.


Do you consider Class E airspace uncontrolled as well? How do you
differentiate between Class E and Class G?

"Newps" wrote in message
...

"Joe Johnson" wrote in message
. ..

snip

If I had it to do again, I would have left the pattern and
headed outbound heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading) and
110
(the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.

This would only make it worse.

How so? I was proposing to follow a non-crossing trajectory.

Thanks Roy. I've enjoyed your informative posts & hope to meet you one day.
(Don't look for Joe Johnson--it's a pseudonym I use to avoid spam.)

"Joe Johnson" wrote in message
news
[...] (Don't look for Joe Johnson--it's a pseudonym I use to avoid spam.)

Spammers don't care what your name is. They only look at your email
address. Pseudonyms do nothing to affect whether you get spam or not.

your experience is not unusual, a couple of months ago, I was on base for
runway 12R, I was comming from the east, tower called me and said I had traffic
at my 9 o'clock, I looked and all I saw was the belly of a cessna going over
me, I called tower back and said "that was kinda close dont you think"
all he said was "roger"

a few months ago we also had a arrow that was landing, land on a malibu (think
it was a malibu) who was departing on the cross runway. this was at the same
airport.


Joe Johnson wrote:

I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL and had a disturbing experience the other day.
I've begun renting at the field where I trained, a busy class D airport.
It's usually not possible to do pattern work there because it's so busy.
Returning from a local flight, I noticed that there was very little traffic,
so I asked to do some touch & gos; I was making left traffic using runway
16. On the 3rd or 4th go, I noticed that a craft was cleared for takeoff on
runway 11. I knew immediately that our paths would cross. I could not see
the other plane as it was behind me; the other pilot was warned by the tower
that I was in the pattern making left traffic. The other pilot finally saw
me as I was turning crosswing to downwind (heading 70 to 340) and he
indicated he was turning right from his takeoff heading 110. When I caught
sight of him, I don't think we were more than 100'-200' apart. At this
point, I said "traffic in sight" and tower replied "maintain visual
separation." If I had it to do again, I would have left the pattern and
headed outbound heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading) and 110
(the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.

I'd be especially interested in comments from Gene Whitt, who said ATC has
been trying to kill him for 40 years, and anyone who might recognize the
airport from the runways described.