Flap angles

On Sun, 16 May 2004 21:18:32 GMT, Greg Esres
wrote:

One of my biggest pet peeves are CFIs who actually teach people to
slip a 172 with flaps.

Interesting that the only thing you picked up on was that which
supported your preconception.




Not at all, alhough it was the only thing I specifically commented on.
Its great to know the various models and the different response that
will be acheived from the different airfoils used. I should have
specifically stated "forward slips," but that gets into a whole other
conversation on CFIs who do not distinguish side slips from forward
slips in their teaching.

Sorry I wasn't specific enough.

z

On Sun, 16 May 2004 19:16:16 -0400, "John Gaquin"
wrote:


"zatatime" wrote in message

Thank you for this information! .... One of my biggest pet peeves
are CFIs who actually teach people to slip a 172 with flaps.


???????

Did you read what Cpt Moore posted?

Completely. Depending on the model you will have different flight
characteristics while performing a forward slip. I doubt very
seriously that a typical flight instructor will have an in depth
conversation on models made in '72 and later, vs a straight tail, vs
everything in between (hell many don't even bother to make sure a
student knows the difference between a forward slip and a side slip)
so I would err on the side of caution and advise against teaching
slips as a general rule in 172 / 182s.

z

The aircraft doesnt distinguish between a forward and a side slip, so
why should the CFI?

Dave

zatatime wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2004 21:18:32 GMT, Greg Esres
wrote:


One of my biggest pet peeves are CFIs who actually teach people to
slip a 172 with flaps.

Interesting that the only thing you picked up on was that which
supported your preconception.





Not at all, alhough it was the only thing I specifically commented on.
Its great to know the various models and the different response that
will be acheived from the different airfoils used. I should have
specifically stated "forward slips," but that gets into a whole other
conversation on CFIs who do not distinguish side slips from forward
slips in their teaching.

Sorry I wasn't specific enough.

z

A great way to descend quickly in a 172 is full flaps, cross controls
into a slip, and descend at the top of the white arc. Learned it from
more than one CFI. I personally have yet to observe the pitching
phenomenon described, but I have been aware of it's existence for years.

Dave

zatatime wrote:

On Sun, 16 May 2004 19:16:16 -0400, "John Gaquin"
wrote:


"zatatime" wrote in message

Thank you for this information! .... One of my biggest pet peeves
are CFIs who actually teach people to slip a 172 with flaps.


???????

Did you read what Cpt Moore posted?


Completely. Depending on the model you will have different flight
characteristics while performing a forward slip. I doubt very
seriously that a typical flight instructor will have an in depth
conversation on models made in '72 and later, vs a straight tail, vs
everything in between (hell many don't even bother to make sure a
student knows the difference between a forward slip and a side slip)
so I would err on the side of caution and advise against teaching
slips as a general rule in 172 / 182s.

z

do not distinguish side slips from forward
slips in their teaching.

That's because there is no difference.

I should have
specifically stated "forward slips," but that gets into a whole other
conversation on CFIs who do not distinguish side slips from forward
slips in their teaching.


There is no difference, until you meet the ground. In the air, all slips are
equal. In one, the ground is moving sideways, in the other it isn't.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Dave S wrote

The aircraft doesnt distinguish between a forward and a side slip, so
why should the CFI?

Probably because the FAA makes the distinction in AC 61-21A Flight
Training Handbook (pages 102-103). I don't have the replacement
for that AC, but it's probably in there also. I can assure you that
an Examiner will expect a CFI to have instructed the student on the
difference.

Bob Moore

"Yeah, Bill Thompson sometimes got a little sensational to sell his
books. sigh"

That's a potentially litiguous statement for a barrister, isn't it Rick?
I think you owes us a more complete explaination.
You have opened the door on this topic, now walk us through it.

EDR wrote

"Yeah, Bill Thompson sometimes got a little sensational to sell his
books. sigh"

That's a potentially litiguous statement for a barrister, isn't it
Rick? I think you owes us a more complete explaination.
You have opened the door on this topic, now walk us through it.

First, let me say that I know neither Mr. Thompson nor Mr. Durden. I
find on web sources that Mr. Durden worked for the Cessna Aircraft
Company in their legal department for about eight years. Mr. Durden is
also the holder of numerous airman certificates including an ATP.

I post the following from the back cover of Mr. Thompson's book.

"The author learned to fly in college in gliders and airplanes in 1940,
and continued his advanced flight training in St. Louis while working
for Curtiss-Wright Airplane Company until 1942. In the war emergency he
trained Army Air Corps and French Cadets for a Civilian Contract School
in South Carolina. Returning to Purdue University in 1945 and switching
to an aeronautical engineering curriculum, he graduated in February,
1947. For the next 28-years, he worked for Cessna Aircraft Company as an
engineering test pilot and, later, as the Manager of Flight Test &
Aerodynamics. He is a Fellow in the Society of Experimental Test
Pi-lots, and at Cessna was a long-time member of the SAE Cockpit
Standardization Committee and the sole representative of the General
Aviation Industry on NASA's Aerodynamics/Aeronautics Committees.
Presently, he owns Thompson Aeronautical Consultants and is an FAA
Engineering Representative for flight test pilot/analyst assignments."


I now ask myself.....self, who has the most credibility when it comes to
discussing the aerodynamic effects of various flap settings on a Cessna
172 airplane? :-)

Bob Moore

I can assure you that an Examiner will expect a CFI to have
instructed the student on the difference.

There is no *aerodynamic* difference between the two, and that's what
is being discussed.