[Rant Warning] Tailwheel Training

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 6...
"C J Campbell" wrote

I will tell you one thing about old pilots: I have never flown with a
pilot who had more than 15,000 hours who did not scare me to death.
The last one, a guy who had 17,000 hours and more than 7,000 hour in
type (a twin), could not hold altitude within 200 feet and had no idea
how to set up an instrument approach. He knew it, too.

Well CJ, here's one 69 year old pilot that thinks that you're full
of ****! I logged my 20,000th hour about 12 years ago and I spent
this past Friday out teaching spins to a Private Pilot who wanted
some advanced instruction. As a bonus, I threw in a few "to-the-
stops" flap 40 slips in his C-172.


Yup...you scared him to death.

I will tell you one thing about old pilots: I have never flown with a
pilot who had more than 15,000 hours who did not scare me to death.
The last one, a guy who had 17,000 hours and more than 7,000 hour in
type (a twin), could not hold altitude within 200 feet and had no idea
how to set up an instrument approach. He knew it, too.

Well CJ, here's one 69 year old pilot that thinks that you're full
of ****! I logged my 20,000th hour about 12 years ago and I spent
this past Friday out teaching spins to a Private Pilot who wanted
some advanced instruction. As a bonus, I threw in a few "to-the-
stops" flap 40 slips in his C-172.


Yup...you scared him to death.

Right on! I guess the required placard that prohibits full flap slips doesn't
mean anything. Just what we need; Someone teaching students that it's "OK" to
do prohibited or unauthorized maneuvers. Dosen't matter if "he" can get away
with it. Reminds me of the guy who posted some time back about the instructor
who looped his Cessna during a lesson. If anyone ever did that while giving a
lesson to my wife I'd rat him out to the FAA at the least and wouldn't want to
consider the worst.

Jim

(JFLEISC) wrote

Right on! I guess the required placard that prohibits full flap slips
doesn't mean anything. Just what we need; Someone teaching students
that it's "OK" to do prohibited or unauthorized maneuvers. Dosen't
matter if "he" can get away with it. Reminds me of the guy who posted
some time back about the instructor who looped his Cessna during a
lesson. If anyone ever did that while giving a lesson to my wife I'd
rat him out to the FAA at the least and wouldn't want to consider the
worst.

Come down off your high horse sonny. No where in the airplane is there
a placard that states "prohibited" about anything. Doesn't say anything
about "unauthorized" either. I don't have the POH here in front of me
at the time, but as I recall it does say something about slips and flaps
during landing, but at 4,000' AGL, we wern't anywhere near landing.

I repost this excerpt from a book written by William Thompson, Manager of
Flight Test and Aerodynamics at the Cessna Aircraft Company. I take it
that you didn't read the entire paragraph posted earlier in another thread.

"For this reason a caution note was placed in most of the owner's manuals
under "Landings" reading "Slips should be avoided with flap settings
greater than 30° due to a downward pitch encountered under certain
combinations of airspeed, side-slip angle, and center of gravity loadings".

Bob Moore

No where in the airplane is there
a placard that states "prohibited" about anything. Doesn't say anything
about "unauthorized" either. I don't have the POH here in front of me
at the time, but as I recall it does say something about slips and flaps
during landing, but at 4,000' AGL, we wern't anywhere near landing.



I have our '61 C-172 POH in front of me and it lists 'authorized' operations.
I guess if it's not on the list "my" interpretation would be "unauthorized". It
also goes on to state 'No acrobatic manuvers are approved except those listed
below'. Loops wasn't one of them. I guess it was "my" interpretation that if it
wasn't 'approved' it was "prohibited". As for the prohibited 40 slip placard,
it was an AD, I believe, and my A&P put it (the label, placard, whatever you
want to call it) on the flap handle. I argued about it and he showed me the AD
number (please don't make me dig that one up) and instructions.

In article ,
(JFLEISC) wrote:


I have our '61 C-172 POH in front of me and it lists 'authorized'
operations.
I guess if it's not on the list "my" interpretation would be "unauthorized".
It
also goes on to state 'No acrobatic manuvers are approved except those listed
below'. Loops wasn't one of them. I guess it was "my" interpretation that if
it
wasn't 'approved' it was "prohibited". As for the prohibited 40 slip placard,
it was an AD, I believe, and my A&P put it (the label, placard, whatever you
want to call it) on the flap handle. I argued about it and he showed me the
AD
number (please don't make me dig that one up) and instructions.

So does it actually say in your Owners Manual that slips with flaps are
prohibited? In my reply to Bob Moore you'll see that I've found that
different years have different procedures slips with flaps...curious
about your '61 model.

I've never seen slips mentioned as an authorized operation on any of the
airplanes I've flown and certainly wouldn't consider them prohibited
simply because they weren't mentioned. The airplane is licensed in the
normal category which allows "any maneuvers incidental to normal
flying"...slips certainly aren't abnormal for light aircraft.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

There is no AD on my 1962 172C. I slipped with full flaps all the time. No
big deal.

Deb

--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)
"JFLEISC" wrote in message
...
No where in the airplane is there
a placard that states "prohibited" about anything. Doesn't say anything
about "unauthorized" either. I don't have the POH here in front of me
at the time, but as I recall it does say something about slips and flaps
during landing, but at 4,000' AGL, we wern't anywhere near landing.



I have our '61 C-172 POH in front of me and it lists 'authorized'
operations.
I guess if it's not on the list "my" interpretation would be
"unauthorized". It
also goes on to state 'No acrobatic manuvers are approved except those
listed
below'. Loops wasn't one of them. I guess it was "my" interpretation that
if it
wasn't 'approved' it was "prohibited". As for the prohibited 40 slip
placard,
it was an AD, I believe, and my A&P put it (the label, placard, whatever
you
want to call it) on the flap handle. I argued about it and he showed me
the AD
number (please don't make me dig that one up) and instructions.

In article ,
Bob Moore wrote:


Come down off your high horse sonny. No where in the airplane is there
a placard that states "prohibited" about anything. Doesn't say anything
about "unauthorized" either. I don't have the POH here in front of me
at the time, but as I recall it does say something about slips and flaps
during landing, but at 4,000' AGL, we wern't anywhere near landing.


Depends on which year 172it is. I was looking at Info Manuals a while
back concerning the slips with flaps stuff and found 2 years (66 and 67
I think it was) that do Prohibit slips with flaps. The year prior and
the years after do not prohibit slips -- which is odd since there are no
big changes to the airframe (the extended dorsal came along in '73).

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

On Thu, 20 May 2004 19:22:52 -0800, Dale wrote:

In article ,
Bob Moo re wrote:


Come down off your high horse sonny. No where in the airplane is there
a placard that states "prohibited" about anything. Doesn't say anything
about "unauthorized" either. I don't have the POH here in front of me
at the time, but as I recall it does say something about slips and flaps
during landing, but at 4,000' AGL, we wern't anywhere near landing.


Depends on which year 172it is. I was looking at Info Manuals a while
back concerning the slips with flaps stuff and found 2 years (66 and 67
I think it was) that do Prohibit slips with flaps. The year prior and
the years after do not prohibit slips -- which is odd since there are no
big changes to the airframe (the extended dorsal came along in '73).

I don't know squat about 172s (sorry, I'm a 170B guy), but are you
certain the 66 and 67 manuals say "prohibited"? I seem to recall (in
passing) that flaps 40 slips were suggested to be "avoided" (way
different animal than prohibited!).

I belong to the camp that says flaps 40 slips is no big deal, *if*
you're familiar with the airplane, it's limitations and your
limitations. In my opinion, the early 100 series Cessnas (with 40
degree flaps) speak volumes to you if you're willing to listen. The
pitch-over they speak of is very manageable (and easily
avoided) in the right hands. The airframe/controls lets you
know with plenty of warning when it is about to get unhappy, and when
that happens, all you have to do is back off in the slightest amount,
and you're back in business. I get the feeling the "avoided"
mention in the books was put in there to weed out the nerds
(and to aid in any lawsuits filed by same).

That being said, if you need to slip a 100 series Cessna
with flaps 40 hanging out, you didn't plan your approach
right, and you were too high / too fast anyway.... grins

Bela P. Havasreti

In article ,
Bela P. Havasreti wrote:


I don't know squat about 172s (sorry, I'm a 170B guy), but are you
certain the 66 and 67 manuals say "prohibited"? I seem to recall (in
passing) that flaps 40 slips were suggested to be "avoided" (way
different animal than prohibited!).

Yes, prohibited. Someone posted on rec.aviation saying it was
prohibited, I said BS....went to Pilot shop the next day and looked at
the Info Manuals...crow doesn't taste too bad if you use lots of salt
and pepper. G

I've slipped all the single engine Cessna's I've flown with flaps and
haven't run into any problems doing so. I agree that if you have to
slip with 40 flaps your planning might not have been the best...but it's
a nice tool to have in the bag if you have to put the airplane
somewhere...like after the engine quits. Engine out landing is why I
practice it....and I've had to use it.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

On Thu, 20 May 2004 23:10:18 -0800, Dale wrote:

Well, at least crow gets more palatable with each serving.... 8^)

I'm with the other guy who posted that perhaps Cessna lawyers
got the word "avoided" changed to "prohibited" in the manuals.

Then later, more Cessna lawyers talked the engineers into
limiting the flaps to 30 degrees (to weed out even more
nerds!).

Bela P. Havasreti

In article ,
Bela P. Havasreti wrote:


I don't know squat about 172s (sorry, I'm a 170B guy), but are you
certain the 66 and 67 manuals say "prohibited"? I seem to recall (in
passing) that flaps 40 slips were suggested to be "avoided" (way
different animal than prohibited!).

Yes, prohibited. Someone posted on rec.aviation saying it was
prohibited, I said BS....went to Pilot shop the next day and looked at
the Info Manuals...crow doesn't taste too bad if you use lots of salt
and pepper. G

I've slipped all the single engine Cessna's I've flown with flaps and
haven't run into any problems doing so. I agree that if you have to
slip with 40 flaps your planning might not have been the best...but it's
a nice tool to have in the bag if you have to put the airplane
somewhere...like after the engine quits. Engine out landing is why I
practice it....and I've had to use it.