Almost saw someone crash

David CL Francis wrote:

Good point. I believe there are some 600 known crash sites in the North
of England where aircraft are believed to have flown into high ground
during WW2. Around 1 in 5 Spitfire and Hurricane losses were due to
accidents and not enemy action if my memory is correct.

I read somewhere about bomber squadrons forming up in low vis before a raid.
Often the crews wouldn't see the conflicting plane, but they'd feel the
wake turbulence and then realized that they'd survived another near miss.


All the best,


David

On Mon, 24 May 2004 19:46:05 GMT, David Megginson
wrote:

I read somewhere about bomber squadrons forming up in low vis before a raid.
Often the crews wouldn't see the conflicting plane, but they'd feel the
wake turbulence and then realized that they'd survived another near miss.

I don't think they formed up in the clouds Dave. The British would
take off and basically head for the target in one huge stream. Bomber
Command accepted that some midair collisions would occur but the main
point was to pull the bombers together in a swarm to overwhelm the
fighter defenses by pushing too many targets for them to track
efficiently. There weren't that many German night fighters so if the
entire bomber swarm passed through the sector together, the night
fighter would not get an opportunity to attack multiple targets. They
basically took off, headed for an assembly point and turned for the
target when they reached it.

The Americans formed up during the day, often climbing out through
dense cloud (bomber pilots often said "when heading back to base, head
for the biggest cloud in the sky, England will be below it) and
breaking out on top to circle for an hour before forming up in wings
and groups all the time gaining height before heading towards their
target of the day. Sometimes bad things happened in the clouds,
sometimes bad things happened in the clear. I have a book at home
that has a photo of a group of B-24's headed straight for the nose of
the B-17 from where the photo was taken. Someone was out of place in
the crowded sky and two entire squadrons of heavy bombers passed right
through each other head on. No collisions that time, but there must
have been a few tightly puckered pilots.

Corky Scott

wrote:
There weren't that many German night fighters so if the
entire bomber swarm passed through the sector together,
the night fighter would not get an opportunity to attack
multiple targets. They basically took off, headed for an
assembly point and turned for the
target when they reached it.

You sure about that? I thought the Brit bombers attacked in a "bomber
stream" rather than any kind of group formation.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:

There weren't that many German night fighters so if the
entire bomber swarm passed through the sector together,
the night fighter would not get an opportunity to attack
multiple targets. They basically took off, headed for an
assembly point and turned for the
target when they reached it.

You sure about that? I thought the Brit bombers attacked in a "bomber
stream" rather than any kind of group formation.

I'm not sure about the British, but the American bombers flying out of the
UK used a box formation -- I think it was three levels high -- and that
requires a fair bit of choreography to set up. In any case, there are many
gradations of visibility between inside a cloud and severe clear.

In THE FOG OF WAR, Robert McNamara talks about how he worked as a
statistician for General Curtis LeMay when LeMay was in charge of the Flying
Fortresses out of the U.K. in 1943. After having too many planes abort
missions because of faulty oxygen systems, engine problems, etc. LeMay
(according to McNamara) declared that the next crew who turned back for any
reason would be court-martialed. That's a strong disincentive for turning
back just because the visibility is low.


All the best,


David

"David Megginson" wrote in message
e.rogers.com...

I'm not sure about the British, but the American bombers flying out of the
UK used a box formation -- I think it was three levels high -- and that
requires a fair bit of choreography to set up. In any case, there are
many
gradations of visibility between inside a cloud and severe clear.

In THE FOG OF WAR, Robert McNamara talks about how he worked as a
statistician for General Curtis LeMay when LeMay was in charge of the
Flying
Fortresses out of the U.K. in 1943. After having too many planes abort
missions because of faulty oxygen systems, engine problems, etc. LeMay
(according to McNamara) declared that the next crew who turned back for
any
reason would be court-martialed. That's a strong disincentive for turning
back just because the visibility is low.


All the best,


David

Pour engourage les autres...

Jay B

On Tue, 25 May 2004 00:03:40 GMT, David Megginson
wrote:

In THE FOG OF WAR, Robert McNamara talks about

This video has been recommended to me. Is it worth seeing? (I'm not
interested in a Michael Moore screed. I get all that stuff I can stand
on the local cocktail party circuit.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Cub Driver wrote:

In THE FOG OF WAR, Robert McNamara talks about

This video has been recommended to me. Is it worth seeing? (I'm not
interested in a Michael Moore screed. I get all that stuff I can stand
on the local cocktail party circuit.)

Yes, THE FOG OF WAR is the kind of documentary that *should* have won a
Palme d'Or. Try to see it in a theatre if you can -- I was trembling when I
walked out, and I'm not easily moved or impressed by documentaries.


All the best,


David

Thanks, David. I'll put it in the queue

On Tue, 25 May 2004 13:00:52 GMT, David Megginson
wrote:

Cub Driver wrote:

In THE FOG OF WAR, Robert McNamara talks about

This video has been recommended to me. Is it worth seeing? (I'm not
interested in a Michael Moore screed. I get all that stuff I can stand
on the local cocktail party circuit.)

Yes, THE FOG OF WAR is the kind of documentary that *should* have won a
Palme d'Or. Try to see it in a theatre if you can -- I was trembling when I
walked out, and I'm not easily moved or impressed by documentaries.


All the best,


David

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:21:20 -0500, "Dan Luke"
wrote:

wrote:
There weren't that many German night fighters so if the
entire bomber swarm passed through the sector together,
the night fighter would not get an opportunity to attack
multiple targets. They basically took off, headed for an
assembly point and turned for the
target when they reached it.

You sure about that? I thought the Brit bombers attacked in a "bomber
stream" rather than any kind of group formation.
--
Dan

Please read what I said again Dan. I'm not claiming that they flew a
formation, what I said was that they took off and headed for an
assembly point, then turned for the target. The bombers all had to
head for the assembly point so that the swarm/stream could get into
the same flight path. If they did not do this, the bomber stream
would be greatly dispersed.

Perhaps assembly point is a poor term, use "initial point" or "turn
in" point instead and perhaps you'll see what I mean. They did not
actually "assemble" at the turning point, they just used it as a
navigation aid to locate where they were and turn to the target
heading, or the initial navigation point towards their target. Each
bomber did this individually and flew individually climbing as they
left their airfield.

So they weren't forming a formation, not in the sense of the US
daylight bombing, they were just arriving at this point and turning to
the target. From then on until they had the target in sight, each
individual bomber was responsible for it's own navigation. They often
could see other bombers in decent weather, and obviously could also
see each other being shot down.

During the bombing raid on Nuremburg in 1944, the weather was crystal
clear above a low cloud layer and the moon was bright. The bombers
stuck out like they were flying during the day. The Germans happened
to have numerous fighters orbiting several radio beacons directly in
the line of flight and once they released the fighters to engage, the
German pilots had little trouble finding targets. So bright was the
night that the Wild Sau (undirected single seat fighters, as opposed
to twin engine radar guided night fighters) figured prominantly in the
nights activities. Nearly 100 bombers were shot down.

Corky Scott

The Americans formed up during the day, often climbing out through
dense cloud

One of the more famous paragraphs that Stephen Ambrose stole from
Thomas Childers had to do with this:

"Up, up, up he went, until he got above the clouds. No amount of
practice could have prepared the pilot and crew for what they
encountered--B-24s, glittering like mica, were popping up out of the
clouds over here, over there, everywhere."

http://www.warbirdforum.com/copycat.htm

They may not have FORMED UP in the cloud, but they had plenty of
opportunities to collide on their way to the formup.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org