Almost saw someone crash

In article TLrtc.8088$n_6.4236@attbi_s53, Jay Honeck wrote:
Compared to many recreational activities, flying is cheap -- period.
If
you can afford a new car -- and tens of millions can -- you can easily
afford to fly.

I don't think you can really describe it as "cheap". If you rent, and
pinch your pennies, it can be affordable, but not "cheap". Not everyone
lives in Iowa.

I said "compared to many recreational activities, flying is cheap" -- which
is a whole different thing than saying "flying is cheap."

Everything is relative. Compared to golfing in Scotland, or owning a 42
foot yacht, flying is DIRT cheap. Compared to bowling, it's pretty spendy.

Compared to many recreational activities, flying is expensive.
Everything is relative. Compared to golfing on my computer (Tiger Woods
2004), playing soccer with friends, watching TV, flying is INCREDIBLY
expensive. Okay, never mind me! Point made by the original poster - if
you can afford a new car, and indeed tens of millions can, you can
easily afford to fly and that's the truth!

On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:17:53 GMT, Mark McNally
wrote:

Point made by the original poster - if
you can afford a new car, and indeed tens of millions can, you can
easily afford to fly and that's the truth!

I can afford to fly, barely. I really can't afford to go anywhere
using the rental so I'm limited to just wafting around the local
countryside. Fun, but limiting.

I'll have to wait till I get my homebuilt finished and the time flown
off to be able to afford to go somewhere without having to rob a bank
to pay for it.

I can't imagine how much that Polish guy paid for the rental 172 he
flew across the US and back.

Corky Scott

I can afford to fly, barely. I really can't afford to go anywhere
using the rental so I'm limited to just wafting around the local
countryside. Fun, but limiting.

Yeah, it's a funny thing about flying. Renting is sooo expensive "per trip"
that you always think twice before going anywhere.

*Buying*, on the other hand, is sooo expensive up-front -- way more
expensive then renting -- but then you tend to forget all about it after the
initial pain. Because of this financial amnesia, you fly a heckuva lot
more, simply because the "per-trip" cost is so low -- really just the cost
of gas.

Either way you cut it, if you took the amount you'd put into buying a new
2004 Toyota, you could buy a really nice little Cessna 150 and fly the pants
off of it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article 5SGtc.58$3x.29@attbi_s54, Jay Honeck wrote:
*Buying*, on the other hand, is sooo expensive up-front -- way more
expensive then renting -- but then you tend to forget all about it after the
initial pain.

When you own the economics change hugely. All the costs are incremental
in renting, where as only a small fraction of the cost is incremental
when you own. I found during the ownership of the C140, most of the
costs - including many maintenance costs - were fixed and you paid them
whether you flew 10 hours a year or 300 hours a year. The vast majority
of the annual inspection was the actual bits that had to be done whether
you flew the plane or not. The hangar fees still had to be paid, the
insurance still had to be paid etc.

That meant that flying an additional hour was very cheap, mainly fuel, a
little for oil, and a little for maintenance reserve. Instead of
thinking 'It's going to cost $BIGNUM to fly another hour' as you do with
a rental, it was 'I'm going to have to pay $BIGNUM per year anyway, and
it only costs $SMALLNUM to fly an additional hour. Let's go flying.' I
flew three times as many hours as an owner compared to renting.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article 5SGtc.58$3x.29@attbi_s54, Jay Honeck wrote:
Either way you cut it, if you took the amount you'd put into buying a new
2004 Toyota, you could buy a really nice little Cessna 150 and fly the pants
off it

.... especially when you consider the depreciation on that Toyota, which
you just don't have with a C150 of the same price.

Dylan Smith wrote
In article 5SGtc.58$3x.29@attbi_s54, Jay Honeck wrote:
Either way you cut it, if you took the amount you'd put into buying a new
2004 Toyota, you could buy a really nice little Cessna 150 and fly the pants
off it

... especially when you consider the depreciation on that Toyota, which
you just don't have with a C150 of the same price.

Sorry guys, but this is nonsense.

Sure, the brand new Toyota is going to cost about as much (maybe a bit
more) than that decades-old C-150. The insurance is going to be about
the same too - in fact, the C-150 insurance may be a bit cheaper.
That's where the similarities end.

The Toyota is going to have a warranty that covers you for 5 years.
Your maintenance expenses for those 5 years are going to be about $100
a year, assuming you do none of the work yourself. On the plane, if
you do none of the work yourself and fly 10,000+ miles a year, like
you will on the Toyota, you're looking at $2000 a year for maintenance
- minimum.

The Toyota depreciates - but so does your C-150. Every hour you fly
is about $5 of engine depreciation. Your avionics depreciate, your
paint depreciates, your engine depreciates, and even your airframe
depreciates (albeit slowly) - how much do you think a C-150 with
12,000+ hours is worth?

The Toyota (a small one providing only somewhat better comfort than a
C-150, rather than a larger one providing dramatically better comfort)
is going to get 40+ mpg. The C-150 will be lucky to get 15, and the
gas costs more.

Finally, you NEED that Toyota (or equivalent) unless you live
someplace like New York City (where the cheapest tiedown in reasonable
driving distance is $250/month) and the C-150 is discretionary.

Michael

Finally, you NEED that Toyota (or equivalent) unless you live
someplace like New York City (where the cheapest tiedown in reasonable
driving distance is $250/month) and the C-150 is discretionary.

Here's where your logic falters: You don't NEED a *new* Toyota.

I drive a '95 Nissan pickup that cost me $1800. I put a fuel transfer tank
in the back that allows me to safely transfer and dispense filtered auto gas
into my '74 Cherokee Pathfinder (235). (See it at
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/fuel_truck.htm )

At a savings of one dollar per gallon (versus avgas), my pickup (AKA: "The
Mighty Grape") has more than paid for itself. In fact, I've now saved over
$1200 in gas expense alone, beyond the cost of the truck, simply by burning
car gas. And the plane runs better.

AND I get to drive the truck back and forth to work every day.

Now, if I were to buy a nice new Lexus (or the equivalent), I could EASILY
spend more per month than I am now spending on flying, just on the monthly
loan payment, insurance, and gas. Throw in an expensive hobby like golf,
and you've got the lifestyle of many of my neighbors -- all of whom think I
must be a millionaire because I own my own airplane.

Do the math. It's pretty easy to see that private flying is well within the
means of many millions of Americans who simply think it's beyond their
reach.

Spread the gospel! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

[snip]

Do the math. It's pretty easy to see that private flying is well within the
means of many millions of Americans who simply think it's beyond their
reach.

Spread the gospel! :-)

Hell, no! I've seen the way most of them drive! :-)



--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

Jay Honeck wrote:

Finally, you NEED that Toyota (or equivalent) unless you live
someplace like New York City (where the cheapest tiedown in reasonable
driving distance is $250/month) and the C-150 is discretionary.

Here's where your logic falters: You don't NEED a *new* Toyota.

A single professional commuting to work in New Jersey NEEDS a dependable car. That
means one with less than about 60 grand on the clock. If his boss can remember when
the first time he broke down was the second time he broke down, he'll be looking for
a job. It's an absolute job requirement that a single commuter will be trading in his
car about the time he gets it paid off or, better yet, leasing one and never owning
one at all.

Things change once you become a two-car household.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

In article , Michael wrote:
The Toyota (a small one providing only somewhat better comfort than a
C-150, rather than a larger one providing dramatically better comfort)
is going to get 40+ mpg. The C-150 will be lucky to get 15, and the
gas costs more.

But the Toyota doesn't fly.

We bought the C140 for $20K, and it's currently being sold for $22K
despite a few hundred extra hours on the airframe. A $20K Toyota would
have depreciated by at least $6K over 4 years. The delta is $8K. We've
nowhere near paid $8K on maintaining the beast. Even if the plane was
sold for the same price as bought, that'd still be a $6K and would still
have paid for the maintenance quite adequately.

This is why I don't buy new cars. My current car when new was 20K. I
bought it for 4K, and all it's needed has been routine maintenance. I'll
take the risk on major things going wrong if it (a) means I don't need
to pay interest on a car loan and (b) don't have to pay 16K of
depreciation. The car's in good condition and should last me at least 10
years.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"