Almost saw someone crash

Jay Honeck wrote:

Finally, you NEED that Toyota (or equivalent) unless you live
someplace like New York City (where the cheapest tiedown in reasonable
driving distance is $250/month) and the C-150 is discretionary.

Here's where your logic falters: You don't NEED a *new* Toyota.

A single professional commuting to work in New Jersey NEEDS a dependable car. That
means one with less than about 60 grand on the clock. If his boss can remember when
the first time he broke down was the second time he broke down, he'll be looking for
a job. It's an absolute job requirement that a single commuter will be trading in his
car about the time he gets it paid off or, better yet, leasing one and never owning
one at all.

Things change once you become a two-car household.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

In article , Michael wrote:
The Toyota (a small one providing only somewhat better comfort than a
C-150, rather than a larger one providing dramatically better comfort)
is going to get 40+ mpg. The C-150 will be lucky to get 15, and the
gas costs more.

But the Toyota doesn't fly.

We bought the C140 for $20K, and it's currently being sold for $22K
despite a few hundred extra hours on the airframe. A $20K Toyota would
have depreciated by at least $6K over 4 years. The delta is $8K. We've
nowhere near paid $8K on maintaining the beast. Even if the plane was
sold for the same price as bought, that'd still be a $6K and would still
have paid for the maintenance quite adequately.

This is why I don't buy new cars. My current car when new was 20K. I
bought it for 4K, and all it's needed has been routine maintenance. I'll
take the risk on major things going wrong if it (a) means I don't need
to pay interest on a car loan and (b) don't have to pay 16K of
depreciation. The car's in good condition and should last me at least 10
years.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

In article , G.R. Patterson III wrote:
A single professional commuting to work in New Jersey NEEDS a dependable car.

Many older cars are very dependable. The last car I had that *wasn't*
dependable was a 1969 Mini (which I did make dependable in the end when
I learned that you have to replace the points and condenser each oil
change, and waterproof the distributor, and put a battery that was less
than 10 years old in it, owning a car older than you are teaches you
things)

I've not had a car actually break down and leave me at the roadside
since 1994, and I've only owned used vehicles.

A modern turbodiesel should be good for 200-300K miles. My Dad's last
turbodiesel Peugeot lasted 350K miles and was dependable.

Whatever car you own, if your job depends on 100% uptime of your
vehicle, you better have an alternate lined up. Even new cars have been
known to break down.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Henry and Debbie McFarland" wrote in message ink.net...
Good for you, Jay! I get so tired of hearing folks whine about my airplanes
when they drive up in their $40,000 SUVs whose insurance is more each year
than our two taildraggers combined. I don't work and my husband doesn't make
a six figure salary, but we manage to fly about 300 hours a year together.

It's all about priorities. I have noticed, too, that some pilots will not
fly unless they are flying the newest, the best, or the fastest.
Consequently, these are airplanes few can afford. Let them stay on the
ground. I don't mind puttering over their heads ;-).

Deb

--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)

Exactly. Our old Cherokee needs a paint job and a lot more, but we fly
and fly and fly. I had a Tri-Pacer for 20 years and often had pilots
ask when I was going to get something faster and better. Funny thing
is that most of them never had a plane at all.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

On Fri, 28 May 2004 13:47:57 GMT, "Henry and Debbie McFarland"
wrote:

Good for you, Jay! I get so tired of hearing folks whine about my airplanes
when they drive up in their $40,000 SUVs whose insurance is more each year
than our two taildraggers combined. I don't work and my husband doesn't make
a six figure salary, but we manage to fly about 300 hours a year together.

It's all about priorities. I have noticed, too, that some pilots will not
fly unless they are flying the newest, the best, or the fastest.
Consequently, these are airplanes few can afford. Let them stay on the
ground. I don't mind puttering over their heads ;-).

Deb


I'd trade a newest of almost anything to have your collection!g

z

Dylan Smith wrote
The Toyota (a small one providing only somewhat better comfort than a
C-150, rather than a larger one providing dramatically better comfort)
is going to get 40+ mpg. The C-150 will be lucky to get 15, and the
gas costs more.

But the Toyota doesn't fly.

A friend of mine had a Toyota whose max level speed was higher than a
C-140. It also cost less. And a car is a necessity - a plane is not.

We bought the C140 for $20K, and it's currently being sold for $22K
despite a few hundred extra hours on the airframe. A $20K Toyota would
have depreciated by at least $6K over 4 years. The delta is $8K. We've
nowhere near paid $8K on maintaining the beast.

Really? Does that include the annual inspections? How about your
time spent working on it?

BTW - a $20K Toyota is a pretty high-end car. I've never paid that
much for a car, new or used.

I don't know how long you kept your C-140, but I kept my first Honda
just over 6 years. It was only a two-seater, but it held two in MUCH
greater comfort than your C-140. It was also way faster, and got
better gas mileage. My TOTAL cost of maintenance for the entire time
I owned it, including all required inspections and all routine
maintenance (none of which I ever did myself) was well under $1000.
Not per year, but total. I paid just over $11K for it new, and when
some idiot rear-ended me on the shoulder, the insurance company wrote
me a check for well over $7K.

I don't know anyone who has ever done that well with an airplane.

Michael

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
If his boss can remember when
the first time he broke down was the second time
he broke down...

It's an absolute job requirement that a single commuter
will be trading in his car about the time he gets it paid off ...

?
What have you been driving, George, Jaguars?

I get rid of a car at ~100,00 miles . On occasion, I dropped each of my
last three cars off at the shop for repairs while I was at work, but
none of them ever "broke down."

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

In article , Michael wrote:
have depreciated by at least $6K over 4 years. The delta is $8K. We've
nowhere near paid $8K on maintaining the beast.

Really? Does that include the annual inspections? How about your
time spent working on it?

Easily. Our maintenance was nowhere near 8K, even when we put two new
cylinders on it. I actually enjoy working with planes, so I don't count
my time messing with them as cost, any more than I count my time, say,
flying gliders or playing computer games as monetary cost. I spend at
least an entire day a week at the airport (and still do). Counting every
bit of your time as money is IMHO counterproductive. I work to live, I
don't live to work.

BTW - a $20K Toyota is a pretty high-end car. I've never paid that
much for a car, new or used.

Many people I know who say flying is very expensive think nothing of
taking out a large loan to buy a 20K vehicle and service the loan. At
least half the people I worked with (i.e. in a similar income range to
me) in Houston had cars that cost them at least 20K. I was the odd one
out, owning a pickup which cost me far less than half that - and I was
one of the few who wasn't servicing a car loan. These same people
wondered how I afforded this expensive flying thing. Easy when you're
not paying off a car loan and suffering the huge depreciation charge on
a new vehicle that was bought for over 20K. You just had to look in the
parking lot to see the numerous Suburban-sized SUVs (priced one
recently?), Mercedes and BMWs to see that many people were happy to
spend very large sums of money on their vehicle. Nothing wrong with that
of course, but to complain you're skint afterwards seems a bit
disingenious.

just over 6 years. It was only a two-seater, but it held two in MUCH
greater comfort than your C-140.

But it couldn't fly.

better gas mileage. My TOTAL cost of maintenance for the entire time
I owned it, including all required inspections and all routine
maintenance (none of which I ever did myself) was well under $1000.
Not per year, but total. I paid just over $11K for it new, and when
some idiot rear-ended me on the shoulder, the insurance company wrote
me a check for well over $7K.

So 6 years of driving cost approximately $5K less the fuel cost. That'll
buy quite a bit of maintenance on a modest light aircraft. Sure you'll
do the work yourself, but if you actually ENJOY the work, it can hardly
be considered 'cost'.

Sure, the level speed of a Toyota is much better than a C140. However,
how many speeding tickets will you get if you drive across Houston at
100 mph? Can you even do 100 mph anywhere on Houston freeways except in
the middle of the night? League City to the soaring club was 45 minutes
in my C140. It was 1.5 hours in my truck and I don't exactly drive
slow.

I'm not saying flying is cheap; it's not. However, you don't have to be
particularly rich to afford a modest plane. When I was in the US, I only
put my international service allowance + a part salary transfer into my
US bank account (IBM pays you in your home country). For the entire time
I was there, I never increased my salary transfer. The total paid into
my US account was $2400/month - I could afford to run my C140 (and my
Ford) on that money, and take the occasional trip in the Bonanza without
needing to transfer any extra money from home...and I was still saving
money in the US! It wasn't till I started flying twins that I had to
think of transferring money in. My parner in that C140 was one of SPX's
_line boys_. His wife was a newly-graduated chemical engineer (and flew
the plane too). They now own a Cessna 180 (although he's now on the
bottom rung of corporate piloting, only a slight pay drop from being a
line boy).

If you've got the will to fly, the passion for it - you can figure out
how to pay for it even on fairly modest money. Not buying a brand new
car with a car loan is one thing that helps tremendously.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

I just hope you're not an accountant ;-)

You made the statement: "I actually enjoy working with planes, so I don't
count my time messing with them as cost, any more than I count my time, say,
flying gliders or playing computer games as monetary cost."

There's a big problem with you analogy there...

If you choose NOT to fly a glider or play with a computer game, it is not
necessary for you to pay someone to engage in these activities for you. So,
for all intents and purposes, there is no cost either way involved in these
activities.

But if you choose NOT to work on your airplane yourself, you WILL have to
pay someone to work on it for you if you wish to keep it airworthy.

When budgeting for something like an airplane, you really shouldn't count on
your own labor contributions as a cost saving measure. Something always goes
wrong!


"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
In article , Michael
wrote:
have depreciated by at least $6K over 4 years. The delta is $8K. We've
nowhere near paid $8K on maintaining the beast.

Really? Does that include the annual inspections? How about your
time spent working on it?

Easily. Our maintenance was nowhere near 8K, even when we put two new
cylinders on it. I actually enjoy working with planes, so I don't count
my time messing with them as cost, any more than I count my time, say,
flying gliders or playing computer games as monetary cost. I spend at
least an entire day a week at the airport (and still do). Counting every
bit of your time as money is IMHO counterproductive. I work to live, I
don't live to work.

BTW - a $20K Toyota is a pretty high-end car. I've never paid that
much for a car, new or used.

Many people I know who say flying is very expensive think nothing of
taking out a large loan to buy a 20K vehicle and service the loan. At
least half the people I worked with (i.e. in a similar income range to
me) in Houston had cars that cost them at least 20K. I was the odd one
out, owning a pickup which cost me far less than half that - and I was
one of the few who wasn't servicing a car loan. These same people
wondered how I afforded this expensive flying thing. Easy when you're
not paying off a car loan and suffering the huge depreciation charge on
a new vehicle that was bought for over 20K. You just had to look in the
parking lot to see the numerous Suburban-sized SUVs (priced one
recently?), Mercedes and BMWs to see that many people were happy to
spend very large sums of money on their vehicle. Nothing wrong with that
of course, but to complain you're skint afterwards seems a bit
disingenious.

just over 6 years. It was only a two-seater, but it held two in MUCH
greater comfort than your C-140.

But it couldn't fly.

better gas mileage. My TOTAL cost of maintenance for the entire time
I owned it, including all required inspections and all routine
maintenance (none of which I ever did myself) was well under $1000.
Not per year, but total. I paid just over $11K for it new, and when
some idiot rear-ended me on the shoulder, the insurance company wrote
me a check for well over $7K.

So 6 years of driving cost approximately $5K less the fuel cost. That'll
buy quite a bit of maintenance on a modest light aircraft. Sure you'll
do the work yourself, but if you actually ENJOY the work, it can hardly
be considered 'cost'.

Sure, the level speed of a Toyota is much better than a C140. However,
how many speeding tickets will you get if you drive across Houston at
100 mph? Can you even do 100 mph anywhere on Houston freeways except in
the middle of the night? League City to the soaring club was 45 minutes
in my C140. It was 1.5 hours in my truck and I don't exactly drive
slow.

I'm not saying flying is cheap; it's not. However, you don't have to be
particularly rich to afford a modest plane. When I was in the US, I only
put my international service allowance + a part salary transfer into my
US bank account (IBM pays you in your home country). For the entire time
I was there, I never increased my salary transfer. The total paid into
my US account was $2400/month - I could afford to run my C140 (and my
Ford) on that money, and take the occasional trip in the Bonanza without
needing to transfer any extra money from home...and I was still saving
money in the US! It wasn't till I started flying twins that I had to
think of transferring money in. My parner in that C140 was one of SPX's
_line boys_. His wife was a newly-graduated chemical engineer (and flew
the plane too). They now own a Cessna 180 (although he's now on the
bottom rung of corporate piloting, only a slight pay drop from being a
line boy).

If you've got the will to fly, the passion for it - you can figure out
how to pay for it even on fairly modest money. Not buying a brand new
car with a car loan is one thing that helps tremendously.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Dan Luke" wrote What have you been driving,
George, Jaguars?

I get rid of a car at ~100,00 miles . On occasion, I dropped each of my
last three cars off at the shop for repairs while I was at work, but
none of them ever "broke down."

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM


Really! I drive a work type cargo van that has 220k miles on it. It only
has failed to deliver me to my destination 2 times. One was an electric
fuel pump that quit suddenly, and one was an alternator failure that the
driver (me) failed to notice.
--
Jim in NC


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