Standard rate turn in Boeing 757?

And in a true aileron roll you pull one negative G to hold the point while
inverted. A little tough with an air carrier machine.

--

B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-
I don't know how anyone looking at that tape, who has done the manuevers
we're speaking of, could confuse one with the other. As you've said
Dudley,
the -80 (which I had the pleasure of seeing up close on Mothers Day
weekend)
did not have the roll authority to do an aileron roll. Those little tiny
ailerons couldn't provide enough asymetic energy. Half way through the
crew
would have been looking straight down at Lake WASHINGTON (thanks Pete!).
Now maybe that would have been more impressive, but it would've taken one
hell of an altitude to start and the folks on the ground might not have
been
able to even see the entry. I've "aileron" rolled a large aircraft (
250,000 lbs) a few times but it didn't depend on ailerons for the
manuever.
The B-1B used a split stab for primary roll authority and that was one
huge,
split "aileron" that provided enough energy to roll the aircraft without
the
Split S and the problems that would bring to a large airframe.

Have a pleasant weekend fellas!!

Stepping off the battlefied,

Jim

"Darrell" wrote
And in a true aileron roll you pull one negative G to hold
the point while inverted.

Darrell, how come you Air Force guys define rolls differently
than everyone else?



http://acro.harvard.edu/ACRO/acro_figures.html#rolls
Aileron rolls are flown with the rudder and elevator in
the neutral position during the roll. The aileron is
fully deflected in the direction of the roll. This is the
easiest of the rolls to fly.
The aileron roll is started by pulling the nose up to 20 - 30
degrees above the horizon. The elevator is then neutralized
and the aileron fully deflected in the direction of the roll.
The controls are maintained in that position till the roll is
completed. After the roll is completed the nose is usually
20 - 30 degrees below the horizon.
Slow rolls have to be flown normally on a straight line. The
roll rate has to be constant and the longitudinal axis of the
plane has to go straight.
This requires constantly changing rudder and elevator control
inputs throughout the roll. Hesitation or point rolls include
stops at certain roll angles.
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sunrise-aviation.com/Ailroll.html
As the name implies, the aileron roll is done with "normal"
inputs of aileron and rudder (in contrast to snap rolls).
At the point this maneuver is introduced to students in the
Sunrise Basic syllabus, no attempt is made to maintain altitude
during the roll. The result is a steady transition from climb
to descent until the aircraft regains upright flight. This
simplified approach to rolling is ideal for beginning aerobatic
pilots.
A further development of basic rolling technique introduces
forward elevator (and negative G) to eliminate altitude loss
while inverted. The result is a Slow Roll, introduced in the
Sunrise Intermediate syllabus. Once mastered, slow rolls
completely replace aileron rolls in the repertoires of most
pilots.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Moore

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
...
"Darrell" wrote
And in a true aileron roll you pull one negative G to hold
the point while inverted.

Darrell, how come you Air Force guys define rolls differently
than everyone else?



http://acro.harvard.edu/ACRO/acro_figures.html#rolls
Aileron rolls are flown with the rudder and elevator in
the neutral position during the roll. The aileron is
fully deflected in the direction of the roll. This is the
easiest of the rolls to fly.
The aileron roll is started by pulling the nose up to 20 - 30
degrees above the horizon. The elevator is then neutralized
and the aileron fully deflected in the direction of the roll.
The controls are maintained in that position till the roll is
completed. After the roll is completed the nose is usually
20 - 30 degrees below the horizon.
Slow rolls have to be flown normally on a straight line. The
roll rate has to be constant and the longitudinal axis of the
plane has to go straight.
This requires constantly changing rudder and elevator control
inputs throughout the roll. Hesitation or point rolls include
stops at certain roll angles.
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sunrise-aviation.com/Ailroll.html
As the name implies, the aileron roll is done with "normal"
inputs of aileron and rudder (in contrast to snap rolls).
At the point this maneuver is introduced to students in the
Sunrise Basic syllabus, no attempt is made to maintain altitude
during the roll. The result is a steady transition from climb
to descent until the aircraft regains upright flight. This
simplified approach to rolling is ideal for beginning aerobatic
pilots.
A further development of basic rolling technique introduces
forward elevator (and negative G) to eliminate altitude loss
while inverted. The result is a Slow Roll, introduced in the
Sunrise Intermediate syllabus. Once mastered, slow rolls
completely replace aileron rolls in the repertoires of most
pilots.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Moore

Although pulling 1 negative g is definitely NOT done in an aileron roll,
you will note as well the discrepancy between the two examples you have
given to explain aileron rolls. The first calls for a complete neutral
rudder throughout the roll and the second calls for rudder and aileron
together.
The first example is totally incorrect both for aileron rolls AND in the
explanation for a slow roll.
In a true aileron roll, the nose is pulled and set as explained, but at
roll initiation, just enough inside rudder is used with inside aileron
to initiate the roll without adverse yaw, THEN the rudder is eliminated
as it would pull the nose down as the airplane goes toward knife edge
and beyond. Although it's true that you can do an aileron roll without
this initial use of inside rudder, it's considered a flaw, and pure
aileron will pull the nose to the outside of the roll and alter the
normal arc that should take the nose from it's position above the
horizon at roll onset, to where it must be below the horizon on
recovery. Initiating a pure aileron input without correction for yaw is
classified as an error in any competent aerobatic school. That being
said, holding in the inside rudder too long after initiation is ALSO
classified as an error :-) It should also be noted that it's perfectly
acceptable to execute an aileron roll varying the amounts of forward
stick and top rudder to allow a more EXACT roll while not crossing the
line to a slow roll. Basically, all you're doing in a true aileron roll
is allowing the nose to arc naturally from it's position over the
horizon back down to a position below the horizon without attempting to
PIN IT!
Now to slow rolls. A slow roll is NOT executed on a straight line as the
description states clearly. No airplane, regardless of it's wing design,
(symmetrical or asymmetrical) flies inverted at the same nose attitude
as level flight erect. The nose MUST be raised ABOVE the horizon in a
slow roll so that the airplane will be level as it passes through it's
inverted level flight attitude. You will find that the correct figure
for describing a slow roll is a letter D to the right or a reverse
letter D if to the left. The vertical line up must be flown before the
roll is initiated. The roll itself is done at the top apex of the D. The
curve of the D is absolutely mandatory if the airplane is to return to
it's beginning level flight attitude erect at the end of the roll.
Exactly how high above the horizon the apex of that D is will be a
function of individual wing design. For example, you do a slow roll a
lot closer to the inverted horizon in an Extra than you do in a P51
Mustang!
In other words, a slow roll can't be done on a straight line without
losing altitude. You MUST place the airplane at a point where it passes
through it's level flight inverted nose attitude and then bring it back
down again in the recovery to it's normal level flight attitude.
So I would grade the first explanation as incorrect on two counts.
The second one is more in line with reality.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Good point, Bob. I said to "hold the point" which is really a roll on a
point which is not necessary and seldom done in plain aileron rolls. To
roll on a point you do need to use top rudder at each 90 degree point and 1
negative G while inverted but... that's not what was asked. Another "senior
moment". Sorry.

--

B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
...
"Darrell" wrote
And in a true aileron roll you pull one negative G to hold
the point while inverted.

Darrell, how come you Air Force guys define rolls differently
than everyone else?



http://acro.harvard.edu/ACRO/acro_figures.html#rolls
Aileron rolls are flown with the rudder and elevator in
the neutral position during the roll. The aileron is
fully deflected in the direction of the roll. This is the
easiest of the rolls to fly.
The aileron roll is started by pulling the nose up to 20 - 30
degrees above the horizon. The elevator is then neutralized
and the aileron fully deflected in the direction of the roll.
The controls are maintained in that position till the roll is
completed. After the roll is completed the nose is usually
20 - 30 degrees below the horizon.
Slow rolls have to be flown normally on a straight line. The
roll rate has to be constant and the longitudinal axis of the
plane has to go straight.
This requires constantly changing rudder and elevator control
inputs throughout the roll. Hesitation or point rolls include
stops at certain roll angles.
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sunrise-aviation.com/Ailroll.html
As the name implies, the aileron roll is done with "normal"
inputs of aileron and rudder (in contrast to snap rolls).
At the point this maneuver is introduced to students in the
Sunrise Basic syllabus, no attempt is made to maintain altitude
during the roll. The result is a steady transition from climb
to descent until the aircraft regains upright flight. This
simplified approach to rolling is ideal for beginning aerobatic
pilots.
A further development of basic rolling technique introduces
forward elevator (and negative G) to eliminate altitude loss
while inverted. The result is a Slow Roll, introduced in the
Sunrise Intermediate syllabus. Once mastered, slow rolls
completely replace aileron rolls in the repertoires of most
pilots.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Moore