Oops... Airliner lands at the wrong airport...

"Newps" wrote in message
...
It's possible that ATC had the wrong destination listed for the
aircraft.

No, it's not. No airliners go into Ellsworth.

So it's impossible? You have a funny definition of "impossible".

If the fact that no airliners go into Ellsworth really meant it was
impossible to have that airport accidently listed as the destination for the
airplane, then it would follow that ATC (being the infalliable group of
people they are, since they could never possibly list the wrong destination
for an airliner) would have also noticed the airliner landing at an airport
at which no airliner ever lands.

Oh, no...but, wait. It seems they didn't notice that an airliner was
getting ready to land at an airport at which no airliner ever lands. I
guess ATC isn't quite as infalliable as you'd like to believe, which means
it IS possible (though perhaps unlikely) that ATC had the wrong destination
listed for the airliner.

Pete

EDR wrote in message . ..

I would like to know what the controller at Ellison Approach was doing
instead of monitoring his/her scope and what the tower controller at
Rapid City was doing when he/she didn't see the aircraft as it called
inbound.

I think the articles said the two airports were only 5 miles apart. It
only takes seconds to travel that distance. Besides, at that distance
the plane was probably already handed off to tower. Most towers don't
even have scopes but even the ones that do don't seem to use them.
They seem to think its more important to look out the window with the
funny things over their eyes.

-Robert

Thanks for posting, Bob! Fascinating stuff!

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 7...
Mike Beede wrote

Anyone know what the balanced field length for a minimum-fuel 707
would have been? Considering how much of an airliner's weight is
fuel and cargo, it seems like it would have been fairly short.

Mike, the answer is not that easy, too many variables, some of
which require a longer field lenght than just balanced-field.
A late model 707 empty weighed about 150,000# and with a couple
of hours of fuel would weigh about 175,000# which would only
require somewhere around 4,000' of runway. I say around because
the charts do not go down that far because of the real limiting
factor which is VMC (ground) which is 122kts regardless of weight
and this factor sets the minimum value of V1 to 122kts.... the
equivalent of a 250,000# airplane and requiring a field length
longer than the 4,000'/100kt V1 numbers would indicate. Obviously,
the 175,000# airplane gets to 122kts faster than a 250,000# airplane
will, but at PanAm, our manual required a minimum field length
that would accomodate the 250,000#/122kt airplane, or about 6,000'.
That being said....I did operate 707s out of Arthur Jones' private
runway on his estate near Ocala, FL when it was only 5,000' long. It
has since been lengthened. Arthur made his fortune in the Nautilus
exercise equipment business and owned three B-707s. John Travolta
lives there now and flies his B-707 from the lengthened 6,000' run-
way.

Bob Moore

"EDR" wrote in message news:210620042218546636%\

Same thing happend in 1964 with a TWA 707.
The airline landed at night KOSU (7 miles NE of Columbus, OH) instead
of KCMH (five miles east of Columbus, OH). KCMH is 10 nm ESE of KOSU.

South of Troutdale near the town of Estacada is the wreckage of a 707 that
descended into a mountain in the '60s because either he or a controller
confused the callsign. The pilot followed vectors intended for an aircraft
somewhere in Washington, but I don't know much else about it. A
firefighter up there told me they removed the bodies, avionics and the
engines but since its in a national forest area, the rest of the aircraft is
still scattered across the forest. Hiked out to find it one time and the
description of the terrain didn't match what we expected, and we didn't find
the crash, BUT while we were looking for it we came across the wreckage of a
National Guard UH-1 that crashed in the mid-70s.

What an odd coincidence...looking for one wreck and finding another.

-c

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Newps" wrote in message
...
It's possible that ATC had the wrong destination listed for the
aircraft.

No, it's not. No airliners go into Ellsworth.

So it's impossible? You have a funny definition of "impossible".

If the fact that no airliners go into Ellsworth

It is a fact. They have no terminal, nothing.


really meant it was
impossible to have that airport accidently listed as the destination

How would that happen? The company files the flight plan everyday. RCA
isn't one of their destinations, just like STP isn't one of their
destinations. So how would it get on the flight plan? The captain gets the
paperwork from the gate agent before boarding the plane and sees the
clearance the dispatcher has filed for him. NWA crew calls for clearance
to "Rapid City", controller says "cleared to Rapid City as filed, blah,
blah, blah. MSP controllers see several clearances to RAP everyday,
probably never see a flightplan to RCA. All center controllers would see
the clearance to RCA and nobody would say "you going to the Air Force base?"
The approach control is the Air Force. They see the same flights to RAP the
same time everyday. They never see a NWA flight to RCA. So you think they
are going to miss the wrong airport ID on the arrival strip? It would stand
out like a flashing red light. Like if you walk up to your plane and a wing
is missing. Any chance at all you would be taxiing out before you notice a
little discrepancy?




Oh, no...but, wait. It seems they didn't notice that an airliner was
getting ready to land at an airport at which no airliner ever lands.

Why the approach controller didn't notice I don't know. I have only flown
to RAP a couple of times and don't remember the layout. I don't know what
route NWA would normally take in these situations when they are manuvering
for the airport. How much time the controller would have if he were
watching I can't say. I would think a few minutes at least. The tower
controller is more understandable as he has no radar. When I worked at GFK
we were 10 miles east of GFA, the Grand Forks Air Force base. We both had
runways 17/35 and they both started just across US Hwy 2 and we didn't have
radar either. The base only had one runway and we had three but I have seen
many aircraft line up for the base by mistake. Many time the tower
controller would call over on the shout line and ask us if we were missing
one.



which means
it IS possible (though perhaps unlikely) that ATC had the wrong
destination
listed for the airliner.

No it's not.

"G. Burkhart" wrote in message
news:zi6Cc.78176$Hg2.44705@attbi_s04...
"Newps" wrote in message
...
None of which they would know as they wouldn't have any information at
all
for RCA on board the aircraft.

Why wouldn't they have information about RCA on board? The NC A/FD lists
both RCA and RAP, don't airlines use something similar to the A/FD?

Many airlines only carry the charts for the airports they land at. It is
airplane specific also. For example we have United fly in here but we don't
get United DC-10's or 747's. In the winter we have about one United flight
per week land here because the headwinds are stronger than forecast and they
won't have the desired reserve, so they land and get gas. If it is a DC-10
or 747 they will not have any info for BIL, we will read it to them over the
air. Another example is American, they don't fly in here at all. Every
once in a while they drop in with a sick passenger or to get gas like
United. They also have no charts for BIL.

My first encounter with MBA-types was as an undergraduate at Columbia. I
witnessed an astonishing argument over the use of some lawn space. The
argument was between a class of business students and a bunch of volleyball
players. Apparently my friends and I took up too much room on "their" field
and the teaching assistant or professor or whomever was teaching the class
that day ranted and raved and behaved like a spoiled child. We sat down and
watched her finish her class then continued our usual daily routine of
playing volleyball on that field. (they were playing croquet. ) We later
learned the class lecture was about negotiation.

I thought that was hilarious.


"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:fzGBc.154929$Ly.27857@attbi_s01...
Spoken by someone who, I suspect, has never completed an MBA program.

Michael
(MBA, Kenan-Flagler Business School, Univ. of N.C. at Chapel Hill, 1982)


"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...


It seems to be the major "thought curve" of the MBA schools, right after
"bean counting", is "excuse making".

Actually, given the class on negotiation part, this is pretty funny.

I just get tired of mindless stereotyping of MBAs as non-thinking clones,
lawyers as dishonest money-grubbers, doctors as drug-pushers, accountants as
crooks, teachers as uncaring civil-servants, etc. A large percentage of the
brightest people in the country get these degrees. Perhaps some of them
actually accomplish something in life.

Michael


"Richard Hertz" wrote in message
t...
My first encounter with MBA-types was as an undergraduate at Columbia. I
witnessed an astonishing argument over the use of some lawn space. The
argument was between a class of business students and a bunch of
volleyball
players. Apparently my friends and I took up too much room on "their"
field
and the teaching assistant or professor or whomever was teaching the class
that day ranted and raved and behaved like a spoiled child. We sat down
and
watched her finish her class then continued our usual daily routine of
playing volleyball on that field. (they were playing croquet. ) We later
learned the class lecture was about negotiation.

I thought that was hilarious.


"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:fzGBc.154929$Ly.27857@attbi_s01...
Spoken by someone who, I suspect, has never completed an MBA program.

Michael
(MBA, Kenan-Flagler Business School, Univ. of N.C. at Chapel Hill, 1982)


"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...


It seems to be the major "thought curve" of the MBA schools, right
after
"bean counting", is "excuse making".

"Newps" wrote in message
...
No it's not.

Like I said, you have a funny definition of "impossible".

I landed at RAP less than two hours after the event described. The weather
was severe clear, with no clouds and unlimited visibilities.

Interestingly, as we approached from the east, my wife pointed at Ellsworth
and said "Isn't that the airport over there?" I said- "no, we're landing at
the smaller one directly in front of us since I don't want to get out and
lay on the ramp with a lot of sky cops pointing loaded guns at us"

Even with the great visibility I can see how the error might be made, since
the main runways are roughly parallel.

The event was the talk of the town, although the controllers seemed pretty
normal over the radio when we came in to land (Ellsworth controls the
airspace except for the tower at RAP, and were letting pilots fly over Mount
Rushmore VFR sight seeing, so they couldn't have been too upset)