Flying under IMC

"Peter Bauer" wrote in message
om...
Hi,
i'm asking myself to make an Instrument Rating or not.
There are some questions to IFR-Pilots :

[scenarios about flying in VMC under VFR between IFR segments snipped]

You can switch back and forth between IFR and VFR if you want but you may it
inconvenient, since every time you want to go back to IFR, you need to
obtain the necessary clearance from ATC (assuming not in Class G
airspace...in controlled airspace, you must have an ATC clearance and an IFR
flight plan in order to fly in IMC, even briefly). There is a way to file a
mixed IFR/VFR flight plan, but I've never heard of that being used when you
need IFR at both the departure and arrival ends of the flight.

Typically, if you're flying under IFR, find yourself in VMC and want to take
advantage of that to operate under the flexibility of VFR, you'd get a "VFR
on top" clearance. That's an IFR clearance, and you would still be
operating under IFR, but you usually would get the flexibility of choosing
your routing and altitude as if you were VFR (and in fact would have to fly
the +500' VFR cruising altitudes rather than the even thousands IFR cruising
altitudes).

For example, taking your first scenario, done this way, you'd take off in
IMC, arrive at VMC above the clouds, get a "VFR on top" clearance, fly in
VMC using VFR altitudes and procedures for 30 minutes, and then descend back
to your destination through IMC for the landing, possibly flying a full
instrument approach.

Your flight plan would be for the entire flight, you'd be flying under IFR
for the entire flight, but the time during which you were flying with a "VFR
on top" clearance, you'd be able to get most of the advantage you'd get had
you cancelled IFR and flown VFR for that period.

Something to keep in mind that some new instrument pilots forget: "VFR on
top" does not require that there be IMC below you. It can be used any time
you can maintain VMC. If you're cruising along IFR, but there's not a cloud
for 100 miles and ATC starts vectoring you around or slowing you down or
gives you a hold, often you can use the "VFR on top" clearance to resolve
whatever issue ATC had, and allow yourself to proceed directly to whereever
you were headed.

Basically, when IFR procedures become inconvenient and VMC prevails, "VFR on
top" allows you to practically fly VFR without giving up your IFR clearance.

Pete

You can switch back and forth between IFR and VFR if you want but you may it
inconvenient, since every time you want to go back to IFR, you need to
obtain the necessary clearance from ATC (assuming not in Class G
airspace...in controlled airspace, you must have an ATC clearance and an IFR
flight plan in order to fly in IMC, even briefly). There is a way to file a
mixed IFR/VFR flight plan, but I've never heard of that being used when you
need IFR at both the departure and arrival ends of the flight.


But what ...when descending under VMC into Class G Airspace and then
coming into IMC "wheather" (e.g. fog,..) then i can fly IFR without a
clearance ???
If a second pilot does the same "plan" .... very dangerous, isn't it ?
Nobody knows from each other flying in fog...


Typically, if you're flying under IFR, find yourself in VMC and want to take
advantage of that to operate under the flexibility of VFR, you'd get a "VFR
on top" clearance. That's an IFR clearance, and you would still be
operating under IFR, but you usually would get the flexibility of choosing
your routing and altitude as if you were VFR (and in fact would have to fly
the +500' VFR cruising altitudes rather than the even thousands IFR cruising
altitudes).

i can really fly VFR under an IFR-Flight Plan ??
But probably with the same "squawk" as under IFR ?
...and then after getting "tired" flying VFR ..changing back to the
initial IFR Flight Plan ? (what is when too far away under VFR flying
from the "filed" Plan ???
Does ATC give me then another "Plan", an "abbreviated" Flight Plan ?



For example, taking your first scenario, done this way, you'd take off in
IMC, arrive at VMC above the clouds, get a "VFR on top" clearance, fly in
VMC using VFR altitudes and procedures for 30 minutes, and then descend back
to your destination through IMC for the landing, possibly flying a full
instrument approach.

Your flight plan would be for the entire flight, you'd be flying under IFR
for the entire flight, but the time during which you were flying with a "VFR
on top" clearance, you'd be able to get most of the advantage you'd get had
you cancelled IFR and flown VFR for that period.

Something to keep in mind that some new instrument pilots forget: "VFR on
top" does not require that there be IMC below you. It can be used any time
you can maintain VMC. If you're cruising along IFR, but there's not a cloud
for 100 miles and ATC starts vectoring you around or slowing you down or
gives you a hold, often you can use the "VFR on top" clearance to resolve
whatever issue ATC had, and allow yourself to proceed directly to whereever
you were headed.


Well, i haven't known about this......because i'm only an PP-ASEL
without
IFR-Privileges. But the described possibilitites makes it very
interesting getting an IFR-Pilot ;-)



Basically, when IFR procedures become inconvenient and VMC prevails, "VFR on
top" allows you to practically fly VFR without giving up your IFR clearance.

Pete


Thanks to you...Pete


Peter

If a second pilot does the same "plan" .... very dangerous, isn't it ?
Nobody knows from each other flying in fog...


Yes. That is the purpose of controlled airspace - to prevent such things by
ensuring that everyone in there under IFR is being separated. Flying IFR in
uncontrolled airspace is not all that prudent, and fortunately not necessary in
most of the US.

Most airports have controlled airspace surrounding them to the ground for the
purpose of instrument approaches.

Jose




--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Peter Bauer" wrote in message
om...
But what ...when descending under VMC into Class G Airspace and then
coming into IMC "wheather" (e.g. fog,..) then i can fly IFR without a
clearance ???
If a second pilot does the same "plan" .... very dangerous, isn't it ?

As Jose says, you can easily avoid other pilots flying IFR in Class G by not
doing it yourself. Airports with instrument approaches also have Class E
surface areas, preventing anyone from flying IFR without a clearance and
flight plan in IMC at those airports. So as long as YOU stick to making
arrivals only through published instrument approaches, you'll avoid any
nut-case trying to do it on their own.

(No offense intended to any nut-cases out there that actually go around
flying IFR without a clearance or flight plan in IMC while in Class G ).

i can really fly VFR under an IFR-Flight Plan ??

Well, sort of. You are still flying IFR (that is, under "instrument flight
rules") while on a "VFR on top" clearance. So you have to comply with
applicable IFR rules, *and* applicable VFR rules. Notably, your cruising
altitude changes to the +500' altitudes, and you are required to maintain
the proper cloud clearances and visibility. But other IFR rules still
apply, like proper notification to ATC of equipment failures, airspeed
changes, reporting points, that sort of thing.

But probably with the same "squawk" as under IFR ?

Yes...you are still flying IFR, on an IFR flight plan, and maintain the same
squawk code you'd have without the "VFR on top" clearance.

..and then after getting "tired" flying VFR ..changing back to the
initial IFR Flight Plan ? (what is when too far away under VFR flying
from the "filed" Plan ???

In order to quit the "VFR on top" clearance, if you have left your original
route, you won't get a clearance to return to normal IFR flight until ATC
can arrange a new routing for you from your position. Generally, it's
advisable to stay reasonably close to your planned route, since off-airways
can be challenging to plan for IMC while you're busy actually flying the
plane.

Personally, I make sure I'm back on my planned route before going back to
non-"VFR on top" flight.

Does ATC give me then another "Plan", an "abbreviated" Flight Plan ?

Yes, basically. If you're not on your planned route, you'll probably get a
vector or "direct" to a navaid to get you back to some place where ATC can
get you back into their system. In my experience, this has always been some
waypoint already on my IFR flight plan...ATC basically just looks to bring
you back to your filed plan, unless you request otherwise.

Well, i haven't known about this......because i'm only an PP-ASEL
withoutIFR-Privileges. But the described possibilitites makes it very
interesting getting an IFR-Pilot ;-)

For what it's worth, there's also a rec.aviation.ifr newsgroup. I don't
follow it because frankly I read too many newsgroups as it is. There are
probably others here who are instrument rated and who don't follow that
newsgroup, but that's really the place to go to find people who are not just
willing, but who are eager to talk about instrument flying.

Pete

You can switch back and forth between IFR and VFR if you want but you may it
inconvenient, since every time you want to go back to IFR, you need to
obtain the necessary clearance from ATC (assuming not in Class G
airspace...in controlled airspace, you must have an ATC clearance and an IFR
flight plan in order to fly in IMC, even briefly). There is a way to file a
mixed IFR/VFR flight plan, but I've never heard of that being used when you
need IFR at both the departure and arrival ends of the flight.


But what ...when descending under VMC into Class G Airspace and then
coming into IMC "wheather" (e.g. fog,..) then i can fly IFR without a
clearance ???
If a second pilot does the same "plan" .... very dangerous, isn't it ?
Nobody knows from each other flying in fog...


Typically, if you're flying under IFR, find yourself in VMC and want to take
advantage of that to operate under the flexibility of VFR, you'd get a "VFR
on top" clearance. That's an IFR clearance, and you would still be
operating under IFR, but you usually would get the flexibility of choosing
your routing and altitude as if you were VFR (and in fact would have to fly
the +500' VFR cruising altitudes rather than the even thousands IFR cruising
altitudes).

i can really fly VFR under an IFR-Flight Plan ??
But probably with the same "squawk" as under IFR ?
...and then after getting "tired" flying VFR ..changing back to the
initial IFR Flight Plan ? (what is when too far away under VFR flying
from the "filed" Plan ???
Does ATC give me then another "Plan", an "abbreviated" Flight Plan ?



For example, taking your first scenario, done this way, you'd take off in
IMC, arrive at VMC above the clouds, get a "VFR on top" clearance, fly in
VMC using VFR altitudes and procedures for 30 minutes, and then descend back
to your destination through IMC for the landing, possibly flying a full
instrument approach.

Your flight plan would be for the entire flight, you'd be flying under IFR
for the entire flight, but the time during which you were flying with a "VFR
on top" clearance, you'd be able to get most of the advantage you'd get had
you cancelled IFR and flown VFR for that period.

Something to keep in mind that some new instrument pilots forget: "VFR on
top" does not require that there be IMC below you. It can be used any time
you can maintain VMC. If you're cruising along IFR, but there's not a cloud
for 100 miles and ATC starts vectoring you around or slowing you down or
gives you a hold, often you can use the "VFR on top" clearance to resolve
whatever issue ATC had, and allow yourself to proceed directly to whereever
you were headed.


Well, i haven't known about this......because i'm only an PP-ASEL
without
IFR-Privileges. But the described possibilitites makes it very
interesting getting an IFR-Pilot ;-)



Basically, when IFR procedures become inconvenient and VMC prevails, "VFR on
top" allows you to practically fly VFR without giving up your IFR clearance.

Pete


Thanks to you...Pete


Peter

Peter Duniho wrote:

the "VFR on top" clearance to resolve
whatever issue ATC had, and allow yourself to proceed directly to
whereever you were headed.

Is that likely to work? ATC may, after all, deny the "on top" clearance.

- Andrew

Is that likely to work?

I fly IFR into Ontario, California IFR on my run and do it VFR on top as much
as possible. It cuts down on our run time as we fly a more direct route, and
since we are on a schedule it helps a lot.

ATC may, after all, deny the "on top" clearance.

They can, but unlikely. It frees up the controller to focus on other things.





-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

Ditch wrote:

Is that likely to work?

I fly IFR into Ontario, California IFR on my run and do it VFR on top as
much as possible. It cuts down on our run time as we fly a more direct
route, and since we are on a schedule it helps a lot.

ATC may, after all, deny the "on top" clearance.

They can, but unlikely. It frees up the controller to focus on other
things.


That certainly makes sense. But what about when I want to return to (let's
call it) "full IFR". I could be well off my flight plan at that point,
right? It may mean less work in the short term, but possibly more work
long term (for the controller).

Of course, perhaps the controller can hope that this'll be the next guy's
problem laugh.

- Andrew

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
online.com...
That certainly makes sense. But what about when I want to return to
(let's
call it) "full IFR". I could be well off my flight plan at that point,
right? It may mean less work in the short term, but possibly more work
long term (for the controller).

It's more of a problem for you than the controller. The controller will
only provide a clearance that he is able to provide. If you put yourself
into a position where he's unable to provide you with a new clearance,
that's your problem, not his. He's not obligated to cancel the "VFR on top"
clearance, as far as I know.

In other words, it's more work for YOU, if you make it more work for anyone.
Personally, I recognize the issues of getting back on a non-"VFR on top"
clearance and make sure that when it's time to get back to regular IFR, it's
easy to do.

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote:

He's not obligated to cancel the "VFR on
top" clearance, as far as I know.

Ah, I'd not thought about it that way. It's not a comforting thought: that
I could be above a ceiling and unable to return to full IFR. There's no
regulatory requirement that would force a controller to let a VFR-on-top-er
back into the system?

- Andrew