Issues around de-ice on a 182

The weather data link (weather in the cockpit) would definitely help 'see'
what's ahead and around corners . My go-no go decisions are made based on
the criteria mentioned above but the screen gives me a good path around the
cells (stick to clear or light green).

Case in point was Friday returning from Ft Myers, Fl to TN. Couldn't get
away until 9pm due to solid lines across FL & GA but after dark, they died
down with large holes to fly thru. We made it without a drop on the wings
(save one little spot in GA)

Having said (?) that, I'd get TKS in a heart beat, if it were available on
my A36.
--

Thx, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.



take off my shoes to reply

TKS is available on A-36 as well as the F-33 and V tail Bonanzas. Contact AS
and T in Salina, KS.

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
om...
Has anyone told of a situation where TKS has not worked in a known-ice TKS
airplane? If so, then -- very seriously -- I would REALLY like to talk to
that pilot. I have never -- repeat never -- heard any concerns whatsoever
about TKS performance even among pilots who have clearly pushed TKS beyond
the point that is legal and appropriate. I have heard stories about
people
departing in freezing rain with TKS with no problems at all.

How is that relevant? My airplane has NO de-ice equipment (other than pitot
heat), I have found myself in (unreported) icing conditions a few times, and
have never crashed, never even had any serious problems. Even so, that
doesn't mean it's safe for me to fly into an area where another pilot has
already reported that ice is present. "Past results are no guarantee of
future performance".

I would do this to depart and climb on top in the winter if I have a
planned
trip with reported light to moderate rime icing and tops within my
airplane's capability.

Well, it's your prerogative as PIC to make a decision to do that. Not
something that I feel is wise though. You never know whether that other
pilot has defined the icing he experienced correctly, nor do you know
whether the conditions he found are really as bad as it might get.

That said, I suppose if you're going to intentionally fly into reported
icing, the TKS system is the one to have. My understanding is that the
fluid helps protect not just the leading edges of the airfoils, but farther
back as well, which is something the other technologies can't accomplish.
That should help address some of the unknowns of flying into icing (such as
ice accumulation being de-ice boots, for example).

Also, I readily accept that certain kinds of "icing forecast" information
need not be disqualifying for a flight, given how vaguely the weather folks
define their icing forecasts. But I'll stand by my opinion (and remember,
it's just my opinion...you have no need or reason to be insulted or feel
threatened by it) that it's foolish to fly into an area that someone else
has already said has active icing, even if one has a known-ice certified
de-ice system installed on their light piston GA airplane.

Finally, I believe in "never say never", and as a generalization, I
recognize that my opinion will not necessary fit all situations. But as a
generalization, I believe it does fit most applicable situations.

Pete

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Peter, as a person who has never flown in the Northwest US, I am
curious about your part of the country. At what altitudes are the icing
conditions during the Northwest US winters?

It depends somewhat on the weather and where you are. As Bob says, the
worst icing appears to be right along the western slopes of the Cascades,
where the moisture-laden freezing air is being lifted.

Generally speaking, the freezing level during the winter varies from as low
as 3-4000' MSL up to 7-8000' MSL, depending mostly on surface temperatures
(or at least correlating...I guess you could just as accurately say that
surface temperatures depend on the freezing level ).

In extreme cases, the freezing level is right at the surface, of course, and
I've seen it as high as 9-10,000' even in the winter (in extremely unusual
warm spells, or when a strong inversion is present).

Do you often have options to remain below those altitudes?

Depends on where you're going. If you stay within the Puget Sound basin,
MEAs are quite low, and the MVA is even lower. For most of the area, ATC
can vector you as low as 2000' or so. Furthermore, when the freezing level
is lower than the MEAs or MVA, it's almost always because of a cold high
pressure system, with very little moisture and no clouds.

However, if you want to travel more than 100 miles or so, you wind up having
to cross some terrain.

Easiest is if you're going south, with MEAs in the 6-7000' range. As long
as it's not too chilly, this gives some breathing room between the freezing
level and the MEA. Also, the freezing level usually slopes upward as you
fly south, and that's where the MEAs start getting higher. Depending on
one's destination, there is also the option of diverting out toward the
coast, where MEAs are lower, and temperatures are sometimes warmer.

Much harder is crossing the Cascades. As Bob mentioned, ATC has implemented
special "vectors for icing" procedures for use during departures and
arrivals. On departures, one may be vectored for a climb (on request) to
cruising/crossing altitude prior to continuing on route over the Cascades,
with the idea that if one discovers icing conditions beyond the capability
of the plane (and generally for piston GA planes, this just means icing
conditions beyond trace icing), they can safely abort the flight and descend
back into warmer air. On arrivals, one may be vectored at altitude,
remaining at the cruising altitude until safely over lower terrain, so that
an uninterrupted descent can be made to below the freezing level.

The worst icing I experienced was on a flight from Everett, WA (Paine Field)
to Eugene, OR. Even that icing didn't turn out to be too terribly
dangerous, but that was only because ATC was able to give me an
uninterrupted descent to below the freezing level. (The freezing level had
been forecast much higher than it turned out to be, in the Eugene area...we
had been in good conditions in the Seattle area).

I do make a definite distinction between forecast "known" icing, and
reported "known" icing. Too often, a forecast of icing is simply based on
too little information. Basically, the airmet says "icing forecast above
the freezing level in clouds". But most of the time, even around here (at
least away from the Cascades), there's not enough moisture in the clouds to
cause icing, even when the temperature is right.

Rather than cancel flights just because of a vague forecast like that, I
always make sure I have at least two "outs", preferably three, and then
proceed with the flight. One of those is almost always a 180 degree turn,
the other is almost always a descent to warmer air (requiring a freezing
level above the MEA). The third could be a cloud layer reported to be thin
enough to climb through quickly (roughly a minute of climbing), or good VFR
conditions near the route (and at the necessary altitude, of course),
something along those lines.

If there's a PIREP telling me there's actual icing, then of course I avoid
the area of the PIREP (and anywhere else nearby that might be similarly
affected). The best case, of course, is when there's a PIREP reporting no
icing at all.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...


How is that relevant? My airplane has NO de-ice equipment (other than
pitot
heat), I have found myself in (unreported) icing conditions a few times,
and
have never crashed, never even had any serious problems. Even so, that


The difference is that the NTSB accident reports are littered with reports
of non-deiced airplanes similar to yours which have crashed due to icing
conditions.

I am not aware of even one report to date of a TKS known-ice piston airplane
crashing due to ice.

Now that is not to say there are no limits to what I can fly in -- flying
recklessly in all weather in winter would be inappropriate. Based upon my
airplane's certification and experience I have built over time, I will fly
in light to moderate icing when tops are at or below 15,000 feet. I will
not fly in known or forecast freezing rain or freezing drizzle or severe
icing. This is all well within the certification parameters of my airplane.

What basis do you have for saying trace icing is the maximum into which I
can fly rather than moderate icing?

doesn't mean it's safe for me to fly into an area where another pilot has
already reported that ice is present. "Past results are no guarantee of
future performance".

If another pilot is reporting light to moderate icing, he is reporting a
condition in which my airplane is certified to fly. Where is the isue here?

Well, it's your prerogative as PIC to make a decision to do that. Not
something that I feel is wise though. You never know whether that other
pilot has defined the icing he experienced correctly, nor do you know
whether the conditions he found are really as bad as it might get.

No, I do not know if he has reported his conditions correctly. But I also
will depart in these conditions without any pilot reports at all -- I study
the weather systems carefully and weather forecasts and -- I say again -- I
only fly if forecasts are for no more than moderate icing and tops no
higher than 15,000 feet. This is no different from any other IFR weather
decision I make.


That said, I suppose if you're going to intentionally fly into reported
icing, the TKS system is the one to have. My understanding is that the
fluid helps protect not just the leading edges of the airfoils, but
farther
back as well, which is something the other technologies can't accomplish.

That is correct.. as I have said before, even in moderate icing conditions I
have yet to see my airspeed decay. In fact, even in moderate icing
conditions, I have yet to land in a situation where there airframe is not
clean enough to take off again. Those are extremely signficant observations
for anyone who has flown a piston airplane with boots.


threatened by it) that it's foolish to fly into an area that someone else
has already said has active icing, even if one has a known-ice certified
de-ice system installed on their light piston GA airplane.


Why is a PIREP a limiting factor? That is like saying if a VFR pilot
reports IMC I shouldn't go flying.

If a pilot of a C152 reports moderate to severe turbulence at 3,000 feet
does that mean I should not depart on my flight which is planned at FL190?


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

a few questions for the TKS operators

what is your tank capacity and duration?

can you easily refill during flt?

do you regularly prime the system during the non-ice season to keep the
openings clear and lines from drying out?

WIACapt wrote:

what is your tank capacity and duration?

Seven gallons. 3 1/2 to 4 hours duration at "anti-ice" (lower flow)
operation. 1 1/2 to 2 hours at "de-ice" (heavier flow) operation.

can you easily refill during flt?

No.

do you regularly prime the system during the non-ice season to keep the
openings clear and lines from drying out?

Yes. Once a month.

--
Peter







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Bob Gardner wrote:

They sent the original Concorde out here for icing tests...does that tell
you something (I flew KOMO-TV to Moses Lake for the event)?

Yes, it does. Thanks, Bob.

--
Peter







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"WIACapt" wrote in message
...


what is your tank capacity and duration?

It depends slightly on the airplane -- non-known-ice airplanes such as the
Cirrus may have a much smaller capacity. For my Cessna P210N the tank holds
6.2 gallons and uses either 2.5 GPH or 5 GPH depending on whether the sytem
is in de-ice or anti-ice mode. Remember that the system can be turned off
once exiting icing conditions and that in trace or light icing conditions it
does not necessarily have to be on continuously because there is a passive
effect from the fluid remaining on the airfoils.

Use of the high flow rate is extremely rare; thus most of the time the
system can be considered to have a 2.5 hour duration.


can you easily refill during flt?

No, it cannot be refilled during flight. The fluid goes in the baggae
compartment.


do you regularly prime the system during the non-ice season to keep the
openings clear and lines from drying out?

Yes, but I don't think this is a big deal.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

Well, it's your prerogative as PIC to make a decision to do that. Not
something that I feel is wise though. You never know whether that other
pilot has defined the icing he experienced correctly, nor do you know
whether the conditions he found are really as bad as it might get.

Peter,

The more I think about this issue as well as your strategy of flying in
forecast ice but not reported ice, I would summarize the situation as
follows. It appears that you are flying under a protocol which has been
known to result in fatal accidents in the past, i.e. flying a non-known-ice
piston airplane under conditions of forecast but not reported icing
conditions. On the other hand I am flying under a protocol which to my
knowledge has never yet resulted in any icing accident, i.e. flying a
certified TKS known-ice piston airplane under either known or forecast light
or moderate icing conditions with tops at or below 15,000 feet.

Why is what I am doing unwise?


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com