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Buzzing Fatality



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 9th 04, 08:28 AM
Dylan Smith
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In article nospam-8F2145.22212702082004@shawnews, tony roberts wrote:
This reminds me of the old discussion on formation flight.
Why do we want to fly close enough to someone who is not trained in
formation flight so that we can wave to him?
We just saw him 20 minutes ago, and we'll see him again in 10 minutes
when we land.

We don't need to bloody wave to him from 20ft wingtip to wingtip!

I am seriously starting to doubt whether it's me that is missing
something, or everyone else!


Yes - you are missing something, quite a lot in fact if you think we fly
formation just to wave at our friends. There are many reasons to fly
formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
pilot is hand signals.

One of my most rewarding cross country flights was Houston to Oshkosh
and back again - almost 25 hours of formation flying with a C170 and a
C140.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
  #2  
Old August 9th 04, 06:38 PM
Orval Fairbairn
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In article ,
Dylan Smith wrote:

In article nospam-8F2145.22212702082004@shawnews, tony roberts wrote:
This reminds me of the old discussion on formation flight.
Why do we want to fly close enough to someone who is not trained in
formation flight so that we can wave to him?
We just saw him 20 minutes ago, and we'll see him again in 10 minutes
when we land.

We don't need to bloody wave to him from 20ft wingtip to wingtip!

I am seriously starting to doubt whether it's me that is missing
something, or everyone else!


Yes - you are missing something, quite a lot in fact if you think we fly
formation just to wave at our friends. There are many reasons to fly
formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
pilot is hand signals.

One of my most rewarding cross country flights was Houston to Oshkosh
and back again - almost 25 hours of formation flying with a C170 and a
C140.



AMEN to that! Formation flying is a precision maneuver -- not to be
taken casually. It requires that everybody knows the signals and
protocols associated with formation flying. The T34 Assn. has a good
formation flying manual, as do the Swift Assn. and the Yak Assn.

Every flight should both brief and debrief, so everybody knows what went
right as well as what needs improvement.

BTW, Dylan, do you know Ian McFayden, at the Isle of Man?
  #3  
Old August 10th 04, 04:47 AM
Dave Stadt
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"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Dylan Smith wrote:

In article nospam-8F2145.22212702082004@shawnews, tony roberts wrote:
This reminds me of the old discussion on formation flight.
Why do we want to fly close enough to someone who is not trained in
formation flight so that we can wave to him?
We just saw him 20 minutes ago, and we'll see him again in 10 minutes
when we land.

We don't need to bloody wave to him from 20ft wingtip to wingtip!

I am seriously starting to doubt whether it's me that is missing
something, or everyone else!


Yes - you are missing something, quite a lot in fact if you think we fly
formation just to wave at our friends. There are many reasons to fly
formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
pilot is hand signals.

One of my most rewarding cross country flights was Houston to Oshkosh
and back again - almost 25 hours of formation flying with a C170 and a
C140.



AMEN to that! Formation flying is a precision maneuver -- not to be
taken casually. It requires that everybody knows the signals and
protocols associated with formation flying. The T34 Assn. has a good
formation flying manual, as do the Swift Assn. and the Yak Assn.

Every flight should both brief and debrief, so everybody knows what went
right as well as what needs improvement.

BTW, Dylan, do you know Ian McFayden, at the Isle of Man?


A couple of advantages formation flying provides is extra sets of eyes to
help see and avoid and a larger object for others to see.



  #4  
Old August 10th 04, 03:14 PM
Dylan Smith
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In article .
earthlink.net, Orval Fairbairn wrote:
BTW, Dylan, do you know Ian McFayden, at the Isle of Man?


Yes, he's the Governor and he sometimes flies and does a bit of
instruction at the glider club. I don't think his schedule allows him to
get out much though!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
  #5  
Old August 13th 04, 05:49 AM
tony roberts
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There are many reasons to fly
formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
pilot is hand signals.


Agreed - when it's done by people who know what they are doing it is a
demonstration of precision aircraft control, and great practice - and
very rewarding to the pilots. For superb examples look no further than
Blue Angels, Red Arrows and Snowbirds.

However, I believe you already know that this is not what I was
referring to.

I was specifically talking about the clowns who have no interest in
learning one single thing after receiving their PP-ASEL (often not even
that) who nevertheless go out and fly wingtip to wingtip, with idiotic
grin firmly in place, and one hand off the yoke to wave with, and create
next weeks NTSB reports.

But you knew that, didn't you?

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE
  #6  
Old August 13th 04, 03:56 PM
William W. Plummer
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tony roberts wrote:

There are many reasons to fly
formation in civil aircraft - the most common is to get in-flight
photographs of another aircraft, but quite often it's done because when
done well, it is very rewarding. The only 'waving' we do at the other
pilot is hand signals.



Agreed - when it's done by people who know what they are doing it is a
demonstration of precision aircraft control, and great practice - and
very rewarding to the pilots. For superb examples look no further than
Blue Angels, Red Arrows and Snowbirds.

However, I believe you already know that this is not what I was
referring to.

I was specifically talking about the clowns who have no interest in
learning one single thing after receiving their PP-ASEL (often not even
that) who nevertheless go out and fly wingtip to wingtip, with idiotic
grin firmly in place, and one hand off the yoke to wave with, and create
next weeks NTSB reports.

But you knew that, didn't you?

Formation flying (was Buzzing Fatality)

If you want a little experience flying in formation, go get a glider
(aero-tow) ticket. During take off, you are flying in formation with
the tow plane although you will be 200' away. Your job is to avoid
crashing the tow plane by jerking it around. Once you get the hang of
it, it's easy enough, but I can't imagine what being 3' away from
another airplane would be like.
  #7  
Old August 15th 04, 11:26 PM
Paul Sengupta
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"William W. Plummer" wrote in message
news:9E4Tc.301121$XM6.76668@attbi_s53...
I can't imagine what being 3' away from
another airplane would be like.


Scary!

Mind you, 3' would be rather too scary.

Paul (just come back from my second formation flying weekend
ready for "the big one" - 21 ship - in a fortnight's time)


  #8  
Old August 16th 04, 05:44 AM
Orval Fairbairn
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In article ,
"Paul Sengupta" wrote:

"William W. Plummer" wrote in message
news:9E4Tc.301121$XM6.76668@attbi_s53...
I can't imagine what being 3' away from
another airplane would be like.


Scary!

Mind you, 3' would be rather too scary.

Paul (just come back from my second formation flying weekend
ready for "the big one" - 21 ship - in a fortnight's time)



Not when both pilots know what they are doing! Normal close formation
discipline is 3' down (wingtip to wingtip), 3' outside (wingtip to
wingtip) and 45 degrees back for wingmen.

It is a lot easier to maintain close formation than more spread out. Do
not try it until you review a good formation manual (the T-34 Assn.
publishes a good one), review the hand signals and get some formation
instructors.

All itt takes is brief, practice, debrief; brief, practice, debrief, etc.
  #9  
Old August 16th 04, 12:05 PM
Paul Sengupta
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"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Paul Sengupta" wrote:

"William W. Plummer" wrote in message
news:9E4Tc.301121$XM6.76668@attbi_s53...
I can't imagine what being 3' away from
another airplane would be like.


Scary!

Mind you, 3' would be rather too scary.


Not when both pilots know what they are doing! Normal close formation
discipline is 3' down (wingtip to wingtip), 3' outside (wingtip to
wingtip) and 45 degrees back for wingmen.


Doesn't that make it more than 3' away then?

It is a lot easier to maintain close formation than more spread out.


If you're confident and skillful enough to do it yes, especially in steep
turns.

Do not try it until you review a good formation manual


Got the RAF manual.

review the hand signals


You want me to fly close formation AND make/watch for hand
signals? :-)

and get some formation instructors.


Got some of those. All current/ex-RAF/red arrows/display pilots.

All itt takes is brief, practice, debrief; brief, practice, debrief, etc.


Phew. Yes.

Paul


  #10  
Old August 16th 04, 08:43 PM
G.R. Patterson III
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Paul Sengupta wrote:

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Paul Sengupta" wrote:

Mind you, 3' would be rather too scary.


Not when both pilots know what they are doing! Normal close formation
discipline is 3' down (wingtip to wingtip), 3' outside (wingtip to
wingtip) and 45 degrees back for wingmen.


Doesn't that make it more than 3' away then?


Yep. About 4.25'.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.
 




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