Run-in with Chicago Center

Would it be improper to ask for a frequency change or to advise that you are
leaving the frequency, or just not necessary?


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Paul Sengupta" wrote in message
...

Are you not supposed to ask for a frequency change before you leave
them?

Or just let them know you're leaving the frequency?


You don't have to do either. You just have to maintain radio
communications
while within the Class D airspace.

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

Would it be improper to ask for a frequency change or to advise that
you are leaving the frequency, or just not necessary?


Asking for something that cannot be denied? There's nothing strictly wrong
with advising that you're leaving the frequency, it's just not necessary.

Bill Denton wrote:

Would it be improper to ask for a frequency change or to advise that you
are leaving the frequency, or just not necessary?

You only *need* to ask for this if you want to switch while in their
airspace. I've hit this case occasionally, and I cannot recall it being a
problem.

For a class D w/o real RADAR (ie. CDW or MMU in my neighborhood), I'll call
when clear just to let them know. For better equiped class Ds, ie. TEB or
RDG, they get rid of me one way ("contact departure") or another ("squawk
VFR").

- Andrew

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:01:52 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Paul Sengupta" wrote in message
.. .

Are you not supposed to ask for a frequency change before you leave them?

Or just let them know you're leaving the frequency?


You don't have to do either. You just have to maintain radio communications
while within the Class D airspace.


The problem is determining when you are clear of the controlled
airspace. I've heard more than a few horror stories about pilots
being clear by more than just a few miles (verified by GPS) and the
tower did not concur. I don't always "announce" my frequency change
but if not, I make sure I'm plenty far away before changing channels.
Rich Russell

"Richard Russell" wrote in message
...

You don't have to do either. You just have to maintain radio
communications
while within the Class D airspace.


The problem is determining when you are clear of the controlled
airspace.


Why is that a problem?



I've heard more than a few horror stories about pilots
being clear by more than just a few miles (verified by GPS) and the
tower did not concur.


What is the tower basing that call on?

Paul Sengupta wrote:




Are you not supposed to ask for a frequency change before you leave them?

Not necessary, especially with a class D.




Or just let them know you're leaving the frequency?

Don't even have to do that.

Jay,

First of all, what the devil were you doing going to a football game,
especially in Green Bay, in August? It ain't natural. They shouldn't
even keep score in football if the temperature is above zero.
Football was introduced in the New England states, for COLD weather.
The sport was *******ized to where it is played in the south which has
caused it to be a game for wussies. Once it spread beyond the nort'
woods, the light weights insisted on things like pads and hard shell
helmets. Jeez, it used to be that there would be three or four broken
bones per game, with a couple of fatalities each season. Now that the
game is played by limp wrists, wearing all sorts of pads, in warm
weather, the only fatalities are generally from heat stroke and I'd be
surprised if there are a dozen broken bones in all the NFL games in a
season.

Accordingly, because you saw fit to violate natural law by going to
see warm weather football, you put yourself at serious risk.
Fortunately, what happened was mild. But, it should serve as a
warning.

It also means, you better get your instrument rating as the warm
weather football curse may now be hovering near you. Besides, flight
following is absolutely the lowest ATC priority and it just isn't
available when you are out there on your hands and knees trying to
stay under weather and everything that is flying VFR is compressed
under that cloud layer. Besides, there are some very, very tall
towers out there; that Cherokee of yours may be a boxy, funny-looking
little airplane, but it would look a heck of a lot worse hanging from
a guy wire on one of those 1,500 foot towers that live out in the
flatlands.

Flight following is a low priority item, so when there is a missed
communication such as went on with you, weird things can happen. Get
the rating, file IFR, fly a little higher on those marginal weather
days and get some space between you and those who are buzzing around
in the little bit of sky that is available under the clouds. Besides,
I don't want to lose a friend who is a Packers fan. Not many people
understand that God intended football to be played outside, in the
cold, sleet and snow, so the Packers are God's elite. You may be
forgiven for one slip up in attending a warm weather game, but be
very, very careful. As I said, God just warned you. And She could
really get ****ed.

Warmest regards,
Rick

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:D2zUc.315580$JR4.141514@attbi_s54...
So I'm on my way home from Green Bay today (where Monday night my son and I
saw his first pro-football game, and my first game at Lambeau Field), and
the weather is fairly crappy.

By noon conditions had risen to VFR along our route of flight (KGRB to
KIOW -- Iowa City, IA), with ceilings in Green Bay 2400 broken, visibility
10 miles, and haze. METARS showed some reporting stations in the 1900
overcast range, but most were at 2200 or better, and radar was clear.

For a flatland, Wisconsin-to-Iowa flight, my personal minimums are 2000 feet
for this kind of flight. We were borderline, but conditions were predicted
to improve, so we launched.

As we droned along under a ragged overcast, we settled in for the
almost-two-hour, into-the-headwind flight home. Soon my son was dozing,
exhausted from staying up late and cheering his life-long hero, Brett Favre
(whom we were lucky enough to meet at the FBO, but that's another story),
amidst 70,000 crazed Packer fans. (To no avail, I might add: The
Sea-Pigeons slaughtered them. But it's only pre-season!)

At my low-ish altitudes, Green Bay couldn't hand me off to Chicago Center
for flight following, so we were soon on our own, watching the emerald-green
Wisconsin landscape unfold beneath us. Atlas was churning the air smoothly,
and we were making 133 knots groundspeed into a 10-knot headwind...

As we would approach the various controlled airspaces, I would pick up
flight following for a time, but they always had to cut me loose, since
Center couldn't "see" us down low. It was a strange feeling flying without
this service, which we always use on long trips.

As we approached Dubuque's Class Delta airspace, the ceilings dropped to
their expected low-point of the trip (the Mississippi River valley usually
creates its own little weather pattern. If there are low clouds around,
they are usually lower near the Big Muddy.), and I had to remain at 1900
feet to be legal. This is still plenty high, as long as you've got good
visibility, and that never dropped below 8 miles.

I called KDBQ from 15 miles out, and announced my intention to transition
their airspace. They told me to call back when 3 miles northeast of the
field. A few minutes later I did so, and the magic words "transition
approved" came over the radio. I passed just north of the field, easily
with gliding distance of their runways.

As we crossed the river, the ceilings slowly rose back up to 2500 overcast,
then broken, then scattered. The plane was running great, and we were soon
in more familiar territory. Near Monticello, IA I called up Cedar Rapids
(KCID) and picked up flight following from our favorite controller, a guy
who has known our voices and aircraft for over 6 years.

A couple of minutes later "our" controller called to ask what type of
aircraft we were. I thought this was odd, because I KNOW the guy knows what
we fly, but I told him our type and equipment on board. He thanked me and
went silent.

Two minutes later he called back and politely but tersely announced "N56993,
I just want to give you the 'head's up' that Chicago Center is not happy
about you transitioning the Class Delta airspace around Dubuque at 1900
feet, and will be wanting to talk to you when you land."

I immediately responded "Well you can tell Chicago Center that I was in
contact with Dubuque Tower, and was given permission to transition their
airspace." Upon hearing this my "friend" relaxed completely, clearly
relieved, and stated that "It must be some kind of a miscommunication, and
I'll pass that information along to Center..."

He then went completely silent, as I droned along, waiting for the F-16s to
escort me down. Visions of FAA paperwork, and some sort of disciplinary
action, danced in my head, as I wondered what might be transpiring in those
dimly lit, windowless rooms at Chicago Center in Aurora, IL...

Finally I couldn't stand it anymore, and called KCID to ask if all was well,
or if I was going to have to speak with anyone. My friend responded
jovially that "as far as we're concerned there is no issue, and to my
knowledge Chicago Center isn't concerned with it, either." While I was
glad to hear this, it was that "to my knowledge" part that stuck in my
craw -- so I resolved to call Dubuque Tower after I landed.

Taxiing to my hangar, my son was joking about the FAA Suburbans waiting to
meet us (there weren't any, thankfully!), and I immediately called Dubuque
after putting the plane away.

The Dubuque tower supervisor knew who I was right away, and immediately
began apologizing. It seems that after I transitioned his airspace (and had
switched to another frequency) he had tried to contact me, because he wanted
to make sure I was clear before releasing an IFR departure. When he
couldn't contact me, he called Chicago Center to see if THEY could see me.

Somehow this conversation got misconstrued by someone at Center to mean that
Dubuque was trying to find a VFR pilot who had busted their airspace. They
tracked me on radar (Surprise! I thought they said they couldn't see me
down low???), figured out who I was, and contacted Cedar Rapids approach --
who then called me.

Whew! Imagine if I had simply opted not to call Cedar Rapids Approach for
flight following? This whole thing could have easily blown way out of
proportion, with the "left hand not knowing what the right hand was
doing" -- and I might well have gotten a letter about it at some later
date -- when it would have been MUCH harder to prove (or disprove) anything.

A weird end to a great overnight trip!

While the instrument rating may get one through some events, it is not a
guarantee. In a single engine piston aircraft without weather
avoidance equipment, one runs the risk of flying into embedded cells.
ATC may or may not keep you updated on weather along your route of
flight, it's not their primary function and is one of those as time
permits things.
I have been instrument rated since 1986, but I won't challenge the
weather gods knowing that there is convective activity along my route.
Better to fly below the clouds and see the weather with the Mark I
Eyeball than fly blindly in the soup.

While the instrument rating may get one through some events, it is not a
guarantee. In a single engine piston aircraft without weather
avoidance equipment, one runs the risk of flying into embedded cells.

My main reason for not finishing up my instrument training has been a lack
of time. A close second, however, is the fact that I have been tracking my
"weather vs. flight" ratio for several years, and it is indeed a rare VFR
flight that is cancelled because of conditions that I would feel comfortable
with flying IFR.

The flights I've scrubbed have usually been because of thunderstorms (which
I wouldn't challenge IFR) or snow/ice -- for which my Pathfinder is not
equipped. I also have no weather avoidance equipment on board, so flying in
August in the clag would be unwise. (Check out a radar loop for Iowa today,
and you'll see why.)

The bottom line is painful, but true: Until I own a much more capable
aircraft than Atlas, an IFR ticket would be a nice ego booster, but not much
use.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay, the time thing is a bear.

But while you may not cancel many flights that you may "feel comfortable
with flying IFR", you will make more of those flights that you do make "more
comfortably" IFR. More safely too.

Ironically, IFR you will spend more time in the sun rather than among the
attennaes. Bring your sunglasses.

Com'on Jay, try to make the time!

(but you've heard all that)

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:fLKUc.9708$Fg5.53@attbi_s53...
While the instrument rating may get one through some events, it is not a
guarantee. In a single engine piston aircraft without weather
avoidance equipment, one runs the risk of flying into embedded cells.

My main reason for not finishing up my instrument training has been a lack
of time. A close second, however, is the fact that I have been tracking
my
"weather vs. flight" ratio for several years, and it is indeed a rare VFR
flight that is cancelled because of conditions that I would feel
comfortable
with flying IFR.

The flights I've scrubbed have usually been because of thunderstorms
(which
I wouldn't challenge IFR) or snow/ice -- for which my Pathfinder is not
equipped. I also have no weather avoidance equipment on board, so flying
in
August in the clag would be unwise. (Check out a radar loop for Iowa
today,
and you'll see why.)

The bottom line is painful, but true: Until I own a much more capable
aircraft than Atlas, an IFR ticket would be a nice ego booster, but not
much
use.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"