Possibly the stupidest idea ever...

I hate when people say "check with the insurance company". Hell, if they
had their way, you'd never leave the ground except that one day a year when
the visibility was perfect and the winds were forecast to be zero, and.. oh,
by the way, they'd prefer you have a CFII in the right seat.

Beyond the FAR's and club rules, the PILOT(s) decide when and where
formation flight is appropriate.

KB


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell this guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.


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Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
I hate when people say "check with the insurance company". Hell, if they
had their way, you'd never leave the ground except that one day a year
when
the visibility was perfect and the winds were forecast to be zero, and..
oh,
by the way, they'd prefer you have a CFII in the right seat.

Beyond the FAR's and club rules, the PILOT(s) decide when and where
formation flight is appropriate.

KB


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell this
guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...

And for most clubs, if the insurance company decides to cancel their
coverage, there is no option other than to go out of business. There just
aren't a lot of companies out there who are willing to insure a flying club
these days, and thus the club needs to keep its insurance company happy.
It's just one of the realities of running a flying club. I didn't say I lke
it, but I do have to work with the realities of the situation.


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In a previous article, "Geoffrey Barnes" said:
"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...

And for most clubs, if the insurance company decides to cancel their
coverage, there is no option other than to go out of business. There just
aren't a lot of companies out there who are willing to insure a flying club
these days, and thus the club needs to keep its insurance company happy.
It's just one of the realities of running a flying club. I didn't say I lke
it, but I do have to work with the realities of the situation.

Especially since Avemco is already on our backs about our Lance - at first
they said they wouldn't insure it (or any other complex 6 seater) at all,
then they said we have to list the 8 pilots who've flown it more than 15
hours this year on the insurance policy and nobody else can fly it. The
other 42 members of the club aren't going to be happy about that.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Died. Woke up in Hell. Punched in PIN, logged on. Just another day.
-- David Gerard

Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not prohibited by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something illegal or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing things that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB


"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
I hate when people say "check with the insurance company". Hell, if
they
had their way, you'd never leave the ground except that one day a year
when
the visibility was perfect and the winds were forecast to be zero, and..
oh,
by the way, they'd prefer you have a CFII in the right seat.

Beyond the FAR's and club rules, the PILOT(s) decide when and where
formation flight is appropriate.

KB


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell this
guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004

Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called something like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if engaged in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay. And in the GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and formation
flying.

And I don't know who you think it is that decides whether an insurance
company pays a claim or not, but it is, in fact, the insurance company. If
you think they wrongly refused to pay you can sue them and take them to
court, but you will probably lose.

And what do you think happens if you are judged at fault in an accident and
your insurance doesn't pay? In most jurisdictions the injured party can take
your house, your car(s), your business (if you have one), and they can place
a judgment on your wages. How long do you think it would take you to pay off
five or ten million dollars?

And just because something is legal doesn't mean your insuror has to pay if
you found liable in an accident.

And given the judgment you've shown in this post, "what YOU deem safe"
scares the **** out of me.



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not prohibited by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something illegal or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing things that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB


"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
I hate when people say "check with the insurance company". Hell, if
they
had their way, you'd never leave the ground except that one day a
year
when
the visibility was perfect and the winds were forecast to be zero,
and..
oh,
by the way, they'd prefer you have a CFII in the right seat.

Beyond the FAR's and club rules, the PILOT(s) decide when and where
formation flight is appropriate.

KB


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't
cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell
this
guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your
problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004

"Bill Denton" wrote:

Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called something like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if engaged in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay.

Bill, reread Kyle's post. I understood his "something not prohibited
by their insurance" as meaning that it was not in the "limitations and
Exclusions" section. And such exclusions cannot just be "the insured
did something dumb", or carriers would never pay.

And in the GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and formation
flying.
If it does, then it would not be the case that Kyle is talking about.
I doubt that he would suggest that the carrier would have to pay off
if the pilot were doing something excluded in the policy, which is why
he said what he did.

And I don't know who you think it is that decides whether an insurance
company pays a claim or not, but it is, in fact, the insurance company. If
you think they wrongly refused to pay you can sue them and take them to
court, but you will probably lose.
Your state insurance commissioner would be a better first step. You
will probably lose if you are doing something prohibited in the
policy, but not if the claim should be paid.

And what do you think happens if you are judged at fault in an accident and
your insurance doesn't pay? In most jurisdictions the injured party can take
your house, your car(s), your business (if you have one), and they can place
a judgment on your wages. How long do you think it would take you to pay off
five or ten million dollars?

And just because something is legal doesn't mean your insuror has to pay if
you found liable in an accident.
Absolutely. that's why the phrase "not prohibited under your insurance
policy" is key.

And given the judgment you've shown in this post, "what YOU deem safe"
scares the **** out of me.
I fail to see where he has shown poor judgement. But the person who
proposed to fly formation w/o training certainly did show poor
judgement.


"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not prohibited by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something illegal or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing things that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB


"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
I hate when people say "check with the insurance company". Hell, if
they
had their way, you'd never leave the ground except that one day a
year
when
the visibility was perfect and the winds were forecast to be zero,
and..
oh,
by the way, they'd prefer you have a CFII in the right seat.

Beyond the FAR's and club rules, the PILOT(s) decide when and where
formation flight is appropriate.

KB


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't
cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell
this
guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your
problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004










--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called something
like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if engaged
in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay. And in the GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and formation
flying.

Mine says no such thing. The list of exclusions is so small it is nearly
invisible.

Bill,

Read Alexy's post. It does an excellent job of filling in what I left
unsaid, because I thought it was apparent. I'll add a few more notes inside
your post...

KB

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called something
like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if engaged
in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay. And in the GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and formation
flying.

Yep, my note said "something not prohibited by insurance." I think that
covers it, although I've never seen a policy that prohibits formation flight
or aerobatics (presuming the aircraft has the proper certification). If you
have, where/who/what insurance company? I believe the most common exclusion
is related to named pilots or pilots with X time in type. I've seen that one
a few times. Also, my current policy says something to the effect of "not
routinely operated off of unpaved surfaces". That doesn't mean "can't land
on a grass strip", but I'd certainly be outside the restrictions of my
policy if I was based at a grass field. If I was based at a grass strip and
pranged the airplane, it is conceivable that the insurance company could
refuse to pay.



And I don't know who you think it is that decides whether an insurance
company pays a claim or not, but it is, in fact, the insurance company. If
you think they wrongly refused to pay you can sue them and take them to
court, but you will probably lose.

If you drive your car 100 mph on the wrong side of the road and kill
someone, your insurance pays. Airplane insurance is more or less the same.
The two fundamental assumptions (less exclusions) in any insurance contract
are 1) You will try to prevent accidents. 2) If/when you have one, the
insurance company will pay.



And what do you think happens if you are judged at fault in an accident
and
your insurance doesn't pay? In most jurisdictions the injured party can
take
your house, your car(s), your business (if you have one), and they can
place
a judgment on your wages. How long do you think it would take you to pay
off
five or ten million dollars?

Read the NTSB reports. 90% of 'em are pilot error and the insurance company
pays up. Nobody plans to screw up, but it happens. That's why we buy
insurance. Who'd buy insurance if the insurance company wouldn't pay when
someone screws up?



And just because something is legal doesn't mean your insuror has to pay
if
you found liable in an accident.

And given the judgment you've shown in this post, "what YOU deem safe"
scares the **** out of me.

This is getting awfully close to a personal attack, so take it careful... I
deem it safe (or unsafe) every time I open the hangar doors. Sometimes I
fly, sometimes I don't. I'm not averse to cancelling a trip if I don't like
it. I've done it more than a few times. Also, I'm not averse to flying in
MVFR or when the FSS says "VFR not recommended", if I judge it to be safe.
That's the responsiblitiy of the pilot - to use his or her judgement to make
the right choices - go/no go, over/under, 3 point/wheel, slips with/without
flaps. You get the idea. Bottom line, every time you leave the ground in
an airplane, there is some risk. It is up to the pilot to minimize those
risks by flying in a manner and in conditions that are within the
capabilities of the pilot/airplane combination.





"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not prohibited
by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something illegal or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing things
that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB

If you are seeing an exclusion like "not routinely operated off of unpaved
surfaces" you are looking at a hull damage policy, not a liability policy.
May I suggest you take a look at your liability policy, as that is what is
being discussed?





"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Bill,

Read Alexy's post. It does an excellent job of filling in what I left
unsaid, because I thought it was apparent. I'll add a few more notes
inside
your post...

KB

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called something
like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if engaged
in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay. And in the GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and
formation
flying.

Yep, my note said "something not prohibited by insurance." I think that
covers it, although I've never seen a policy that prohibits formation
flight
or aerobatics (presuming the aircraft has the proper certification). If
you
have, where/who/what insurance company? I believe the most common
exclusion
is related to named pilots or pilots with X time in type. I've seen that
one
a few times. Also, my current policy says something to the effect of "not
routinely operated off of unpaved surfaces". That doesn't mean "can't
land
on a grass strip", but I'd certainly be outside the restrictions of my
policy if I was based at a grass field. If I was based at a grass strip
and
pranged the airplane, it is conceivable that the insurance company could
refuse to pay.



And I don't know who you think it is that decides whether an insurance
company pays a claim or not, but it is, in fact, the insurance company.
If
you think they wrongly refused to pay you can sue them and take them to
court, but you will probably lose.

If you drive your car 100 mph on the wrong side of the road and kill
someone, your insurance pays. Airplane insurance is more or less the same.
The two fundamental assumptions (less exclusions) in any insurance
contract
are 1) You will try to prevent accidents. 2) If/when you have one, the
insurance company will pay.



And what do you think happens if you are judged at fault in an accident
and
your insurance doesn't pay? In most jurisdictions the injured party can
take
your house, your car(s), your business (if you have one), and they can
place
a judgment on your wages. How long do you think it would take you to pay
off
five or ten million dollars?

Read the NTSB reports. 90% of 'em are pilot error and the insurance
company
pays up. Nobody plans to screw up, but it happens. That's why we buy
insurance. Who'd buy insurance if the insurance company wouldn't pay when
someone screws up?



And just because something is legal doesn't mean your insuror has to pay
if
you found liable in an accident.

And given the judgment you've shown in this post, "what YOU deem safe"
scares the **** out of me.

This is getting awfully close to a personal attack, so take it careful...
I
deem it safe (or unsafe) every time I open the hangar doors. Sometimes I
fly, sometimes I don't. I'm not averse to cancelling a trip if I don't
like
it. I've done it more than a few times. Also, I'm not averse to flying in
MVFR or when the FSS says "VFR not recommended", if I judge it to be safe.
That's the responsiblitiy of the pilot - to use his or her judgement to
make
the right choices - go/no go, over/under, 3 point/wheel, slips
with/without
flaps. You get the idea. Bottom line, every time you leave the ground in
an airplane, there is some risk. It is up to the pilot to minimize those
risks by flying in a manner and in conditions that are within the
capabilities of the pilot/airplane combination.





"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not
prohibited
by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something illegal or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing things
that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB