Pathetic Pilot Salaries

"Vic" wrote in message
m...
Hi,

I am a 35 year old software programmer thinking about a possible
career change into aviation. I am currently working on my PPL.
I've come to know some pilots who are currently flying for ASA and
Comair. Both of them made UNDER 17,000.00 last year. They are both
young guys without families, homes,etc.. so it's a bit easier for
them to ride this through. Anyhow, since I haven't made up my mind
yet, I would love to hear from any of you who have been in a similar
situation. Especially if you are around my age, made the switch from a
previous career, are married, have children and a mortgage. You get my
point. How do you pay continue to pay the bills? I will obviously take
a huge hit salary speaking, but I was shocked at how low the starting
salaries are!! With my wife, children and mortgage, I could qualify
for food stamps on that kind of pay. Also, since that would put my
family below the poverty level, would I even have to pay income tax?
Not to mention I will also have to make payments on student loans if
I choose to go ahead with this.

My CFI tells me to avoid the regionals at all costs. He suggests
flying corporate, but after some research the starting salaries for a
corporate pilot seem to be just as low. He also said that in a few
years there will be a pilot shortage. If there is a pilot shortage in
3-5 years, what does this actually mean for newly rated commercial
pilots who are looking for their first job? If anyone has any thoughts
I would love to hear them. Thanks in advance!

Vic

Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be glamorous.

Mike
MU-2

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
news:zRHXc.126

Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be glamorous.

The people paying the salaries, and the pilots earning them, ought to know
better. Salaries should always be high in an occupation considered (by the
general public) to be dangerous.

-c

"gatt" wrote:
Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be
glamorous.

The people paying the salaries, and the pilots earning them, ought to know
better. Salaries should always be high in an occupation considered (by
the
general public) to be dangerous.

Should? Maybe so, but simple supply and demand is setting pilot salaries.
Mike is right: as long as there are plenty of people willing to accept the
joy of flying and the prestige of being a pilot as part of their
compensation, salaries will be correspondingly depressed.

The only reasons some senior U. S. airline pilots are making $200k/year now
are regulation and unions. Regulation is mostly gone and the wide open
market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater is a
fading anachronism.

Unless there is an industry-wide revival of the union movement, watch for
salaries to continue to decline for all pilots. It will be interesting to
see where pay bottoms out, and what the general quality of Part 121 pilots
will be when it does.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"gatt" wrote:
Salaries will always be low in an occupation considered to be
glamorous.

The people paying the salaries, and the pilots earning them, ought to
know
better. Salaries should always be high in an occupation considered (by
the
general public) to be dangerous.

Should? Maybe so, but simple supply and demand is setting pilot salaries.
Mike is right: as long as there are plenty of people willing to accept the
joy of flying and the prestige of being a pilot as part of their
compensation, salaries will be correspondingly depressed.

The only reasons some senior U. S. airline pilots are making $200k/year
now
are regulation and unions. Regulation is mostly gone and the wide open
market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater is a
fading anachronism.

Unless there is an industry-wide revival of the union movement, watch for
salaries to continue to decline for all pilots. It will be interesting to
see where pay bottoms out, and what the general quality of Part 121 pilots
will be when it does.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM


Additionally the $200k is somewhat of a farce because the pensions are so
underfunded. There is a recent newspaper article on the United
restructuring saying that many of the pilots recieving $175K a year in
retirement may be getting $28K from now on.

Mike
MU-2

Mike Rapoport wrote:




Additionally the $200k is somewhat of a farce because the pensions are so
underfunded. There is a recent newspaper article on the United
restructuring saying that many of the pilots recieving $175K a year in
retirement may be getting $28K from now on.

One of the guys at work his father is a retired United pilot. They are
expecting to lose everything. No pension. Also United is not paying
into the pension fund, as ordered by the bankruptcy court.

"Dan Luke" wrote
market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater is a
fading anachronism.

Actually, Southwest is unionized and they're doing great. Of course
they are not an ALPA shop, and their pilots don't make what the rest
of the industry is making. Still, they do fairly well - and Southwest
is probably a pretty good indication of where the salaries will
stabilize. Maybe.

For now, Southwest still has to compete with other carriers in hiring.
I have a feeling most of those other carriers are not going to be
around much longer. Having a bunch of senior jet pilots dumped on the
market is going to do amazing things.

Realistically, at the airline captain level, you're talking about a
job with supervisory duties and technical proficiency requirements
that requires a college degree in a reasonably technical subject,
expensive training, paying a lot of dues, and at least 10 years of
post-college experience. What's more, lots of those who head in that
direction don't make it. That calls for a salary in the low six/high
five figures to make it worthwhile, and that's where salaries are
going to stabilize.

It will be interesting to
see where pay bottoms out, and what the general quality of Part 121 pilots
will be when it does.

My bet is that is stabilizes right around $100K in today's dollars for
major airline captains, and the quality of the pilots (as measured in
accident rate) will not change.

Michael

"Michael" wrote:
market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater
is a
fading anachronism.

Actually, Southwest is unionized and they're doing great. Of course
they are not an ALPA shop, and their pilots don't make what the rest
of the industry is making. Still, they do fairly well - and Southwest
is probably a pretty good indication of where the salaries will
stabilize. Maybe.

Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
manager/founder. Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
publicly traded corporations.

Your point is valid, though: management likes to blame unions for
competitive disadvantages, but management agreed to those contracts.
Often this is a case of throwing money at unhappy people because it's
easier than dealing imaginatively with the workforce.

[snip]

My bet is that is stabilizes right around $100K in today's dollars for
major airline captains, and the quality of the pilots (as measured in
accident rate) will not change.

I'll bet you lunch at Carl's that it will be ~$75K in today's dollars in
10 years. Hope I can still fly in to collect.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Michael" wrote:
market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater
is a
fading anachronism.

Actually, Southwest is unionized and they're doing great. Of course
they are not an ALPA shop, and their pilots don't make what the rest
of the industry is making. Still, they do fairly well - and Southwest
is probably a pretty good indication of where the salaries will
stabilize. Maybe.

Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
manager/founder. Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
publicly traded corporations.


I don't know if I would agree that SWA success was dependent on brilliance.
It seems pretty simple. SWA seems to be the only airline that realizes who
the customer is, what they want and set up a business to provide it. The
other airlines talk about restructuring but, as soon as the economy gets
good, they go back to their old ways and the cycle repeats.

Mike
MU-2

"Mike Rapoport" wrote:

Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
manager/founder. Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
publicly traded corporations.


I don't know if I would agree that SWA success was dependent on
brilliance.
It seems pretty simple. SWA seems to be the only airline that
realizes who
the customer is, what they want and set up a business to provide it.

Seems simple doesn't it? But I make a good living off the chronic
inability of my large corporate competitors to do just that. I'm
thankful that the level of management talent in Fortune 500 companies is
what it is, and I'm sure Herb Kelleher was, too.

The other airlines talk about restructuring but, as soon as the
economy gets
good, they go back to their old ways and the cycle repeats.

Corporate America's idea of "restructuring" usually amounts to little
more than cutting head count and expecting the survivors to cope as best
they can. They usually offer deals that encourage their most experienced
employees to leave. I love this; it's guaranteed to **** off even their
most loyal customers and make my phone ring.

But you're right, Mike: if Delta and United survive into a boom cycle,
upper management will head back to the golf course and let things get
fat again.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

"Dan Luke" wrote
Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
manager/founder.

Nothing brilliant about it. Southwest is an actual business, and run
as such - the goal being to make a profit. Most airlines are run more
like model railroads - the goal being to be able to get more and
bigger stuff. Southwest is pretty much the Greyhound of the air. I
avoid them like the plague - no direct flights anywhere, cattle-call
boarding, no possibility of an upgrade to first class because they
don't have it, full flights, no food. Of course I'm not paying for my
ticket, either. Southwest is not targeted at getting the people on
corporate expense accounts - it's targeted at gettting the people who
will use alternate transportation (most often drive) unless the price
is right. They are the Greyhound of the air.

Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
publicly traded corporations.

Does seem to be the case, doesn't it...

Your point is valid, though: management likes to blame unions for
competitive disadvantages, but management agreed to those contracts.
Often this is a case of throwing money at unhappy people because it's
easier than dealing imaginatively with the workforce.

Imagination doesn't cut it - you need money. The Southwest pilots I
know are often unemployable elsewhere - in fact, every Southwest pilot
I know has crashed at least one airplane. Small sample, but still...
Does that make me concerned about the safety of flying Southwest? Not
in the least. As one of them put it, there are so many rules and
procedures in place, it just doesn't matter.

Historically, airline pilot salaries were high because it DID matter.
In the age of the piston airliners and the steam gauge cockpits, when
airliners flew in the weather rather than above it, pilot skill and
experience mattered a lot. It was important to attract the best
through a winnowing process, where the winnowing only killed a few
people at a time rather than dozens or hundreds. That's no longer
important.

My bet is that is stabilizes right around $100K in today's dollars for
major airline captains, and the quality of the pilots (as measured in
accident rate) will not change.

I'll bet you lunch at Carl's that it will be ~$75K in today's dollars in
10 years. Hope I can still fly in to collect.

You're on.

Michael