Pathetic Pilot Salaries

"Michael" wrote:
market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater
is a
fading anachronism.

Actually, Southwest is unionized and they're doing great. Of course
they are not an ALPA shop, and their pilots don't make what the rest
of the industry is making. Still, they do fairly well - and Southwest
is probably a pretty good indication of where the salaries will
stabilize. Maybe.

Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
manager/founder. Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
publicly traded corporations.

Your point is valid, though: management likes to blame unions for
competitive disadvantages, but management agreed to those contracts.
Often this is a case of throwing money at unhappy people because it's
easier than dealing imaginatively with the workforce.

[snip]

My bet is that is stabilizes right around $100K in today's dollars for
major airline captains, and the quality of the pilots (as measured in
accident rate) will not change.

I'll bet you lunch at Carl's that it will be ~$75K in today's dollars in
10 years. Hope I can still fly in to collect.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Michael" wrote:
market is destroying the unionized carriers. The $200K left-seater
is a
fading anachronism.

Actually, Southwest is unionized and they're doing great. Of course
they are not an ALPA shop, and their pilots don't make what the rest
of the industry is making. Still, they do fairly well - and Southwest
is probably a pretty good indication of where the salaries will
stabilize. Maybe.

Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
manager/founder. Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
publicly traded corporations.


I don't know if I would agree that SWA success was dependent on brilliance.
It seems pretty simple. SWA seems to be the only airline that realizes who
the customer is, what they want and set up a business to provide it. The
other airlines talk about restructuring but, as soon as the economy gets
good, they go back to their old ways and the cycle repeats.

Mike
MU-2

"Mike Rapoport" wrote:

Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
manager/founder. Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
publicly traded corporations.


I don't know if I would agree that SWA success was dependent on
brilliance.
It seems pretty simple. SWA seems to be the only airline that
realizes who
the customer is, what they want and set up a business to provide it.

Seems simple doesn't it? But I make a good living off the chronic
inability of my large corporate competitors to do just that. I'm
thankful that the level of management talent in Fortune 500 companies is
what it is, and I'm sure Herb Kelleher was, too.

The other airlines talk about restructuring but, as soon as the
economy gets
good, they go back to their old ways and the cycle repeats.

Corporate America's idea of "restructuring" usually amounts to little
more than cutting head count and expecting the survivors to cope as best
they can. They usually offer deals that encourage their most experienced
employees to leave. I love this; it's guaranteed to **** off even their
most loyal customers and make my phone ring.

But you're right, Mike: if Delta and United survive into a boom cycle,
upper management will head back to the golf course and let things get
fat again.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

"Dan Luke" wrote
Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
manager/founder.

Nothing brilliant about it. Southwest is an actual business, and run
as such - the goal being to make a profit. Most airlines are run more
like model railroads - the goal being to be able to get more and
bigger stuff. Southwest is pretty much the Greyhound of the air. I
avoid them like the plague - no direct flights anywhere, cattle-call
boarding, no possibility of an upgrade to first class because they
don't have it, full flights, no food. Of course I'm not paying for my
ticket, either. Southwest is not targeted at getting the people on
corporate expense accounts - it's targeted at gettting the people who
will use alternate transportation (most often drive) unless the price
is right. They are the Greyhound of the air.

Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
publicly traded corporations.

Does seem to be the case, doesn't it...

Your point is valid, though: management likes to blame unions for
competitive disadvantages, but management agreed to those contracts.
Often this is a case of throwing money at unhappy people because it's
easier than dealing imaginatively with the workforce.

Imagination doesn't cut it - you need money. The Southwest pilots I
know are often unemployable elsewhere - in fact, every Southwest pilot
I know has crashed at least one airplane. Small sample, but still...
Does that make me concerned about the safety of flying Southwest? Not
in the least. As one of them put it, there are so many rules and
procedures in place, it just doesn't matter.

Historically, airline pilot salaries were high because it DID matter.
In the age of the piston airliners and the steam gauge cockpits, when
airliners flew in the weather rather than above it, pilot skill and
experience mattered a lot. It was important to attract the best
through a winnowing process, where the winnowing only killed a few
people at a time rather than dozens or hundreds. That's no longer
important.

My bet is that is stabilizes right around $100K in today's dollars for
major airline captains, and the quality of the pilots (as measured in
accident rate) will not change.

I'll bet you lunch at Carl's that it will be ~$75K in today's dollars in
10 years. Hope I can still fly in to collect.

You're on.

Michael

"Michael" wrote:

Southwest is a very special case. It's the child of a brilliant
manager/founder.

Nothing brilliant about it. Southwest is an actual business, and run
as such - the goal being to make a profit. Most airlines are run more
like model railroads - the goal being to be able to get more and
bigger stuff. Southwest is pretty much the Greyhound of the air. I
avoid them like the plague - no direct flights anywhere, cattle-call
boarding, no possibility of an upgrade to first class because they
don't have it, full flights, no food. Of course I'm not paying for my
ticket, either. Southwest is not targeted at getting the people on
corporate expense accounts - it's targeted at gettting the people who
will use alternate transportation (most often drive) unless the price
is right. They are the Greyhound of the air.

I call that brilliant - I didn't say it was sexy.

Such individuals are rare - vanishingly scarce in
publicly traded corporations.

Does seem to be the case, doesn't it...

Your point is valid, though: management likes to blame unions for
competitive disadvantages, but management agreed to those contracts.
Often this is a case of throwing money at unhappy people because it's
easier than dealing imaginatively with the workforce.

Imagination doesn't cut it - you need money.

Well, you need air, too. Just paying people more will not make for a
high-morale workforce.

The Southwest pilots I know are often unemployable elsewhere
- in fact, every Southwest pilot I know has crashed at least one
airplane. Small sample, but still...
Does that make me concerned about the safety of flying
Southwest? Not in the least. As one of them put it, there are
so many rules and procedures in place, it just doesn't matter.

SW's safety record would seem to support that. I know only one SW pilot,
and he's the best pilot I know.

Historically, airline pilot salaries were high because it DID matter.
In the age of the piston airliners and the steam gauge cockpits, when
airliners flew in the weather rather than above it, pilot skill and
experience mattered a lot. It was important to attract the best
through a winnowing process, where the winnowing only killed a few
people at a time rather than dozens or hundreds. That's no longer
important.

....and will become less so as cockpit automation increases; that's why I'm
betting on a large decline in salaries. Which brings up another question:
can the airlines can get to single-pilot operations? Imagine the market
advantage an airliner certified for single-pilot would have, and what *that*
would do to salaries.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

In article , Dan Luke wrote:
The Southwest pilots I know are often unemployable elsewhere
- in fact, every Southwest pilot I know has crashed at least one
airplane. Small sample, but still...

SW's safety record would seem to support that. I know only one SW pilot,
and he's the best pilot I know.

The two SW pilots I know - one is Debbie Rihn-Harvey, a US Aerobatic
champion, and the other's a guy with two piston aircraft of his own
(neither of which he's crashed!) Both have a real passion for aviation.
I have had the privilege of flying formation with Debbie (albeit
briefly) as well as taking my Multi Engine/Instrument checkride with her.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

On 30 Aug 2004 10:29:58 -0700,
(Michael) wrote:

Southwest is an actual business, and run
as such - the goal being to make a profit. Most airlines are run more
like model railroads - the goal being to be able to get more and
bigger stuff. Southwest is pretty much the Greyhound of the air. I
avoid them like the plague - no direct flights anywhere, cattle-call
boarding, no possibility of an upgrade to first class because they
don't have it, full flights, no food. Of course I'm not paying for my
ticket, either.

Well, there you have it! For my part, I am actually giving up Frequent
Flier programs because I find it's just as easy most of the time to
pay for a ticket on Southwest. It helps of course that the nearest
airport to me with scheduled service is Manchester NH, from which
Southwest flies to Baltimore, which is a one-hour mass transit ride
from DC, which is where I am generally going.

Obviously you haven't ridden Southwest often enough to appreciate the
brilliance of its biz model. I enjoy the aircraft, the flight
attendants, and the open seating. I admit that boarding in BWI is a
bit wearisome (though nothing like boarding the Greyhound in New York,
which is something else I often do: anyone comparing SW to the Hound
just hasn't ridden the Hound lately). But the BWI stand-in-line is
hardly worse than sitting around, and anyhow it's made up for by the
ease of boarding in Manchester outbound.

Southwest is the future.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

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