Pre-buy Inspection

"Ben Jackson" wrote in message
news:B6rYc.336985$%_6.247476@attbi_s01...
In article ,
Jon Kraus wrote:
One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances.

What should concern you is if the leak is past the valves rather than by
the rings.

As well as the trend over the last few inspections, I would think...

Sounds very reasonable and the honorable way to do business.

I can't understand why some people think the object is to get the lowest
price when the object should be to make an honest deal. Deal with your
trading partner honorably, you'll meet them again sooner or later somehow --
wouldn't it be nice to do so with a clear conscience?

--
Jim Carter
"Steve Foley" wrote in message
...
Maybe I'm relating it too much to real estate.

Make an offer.
Arrange an inspection
negotiate anything revealed during the inspection
close.

If you tell me you want to do a pre-buy on my airplane, we will already
have
a price negotiated. If, after the pre-buy, you want to lower your offer
based on something you already knew before the pre-buy (when we negotiated
the price) I'm telling you to take a hike.

So what I hear you saying is that you won't have a clear conscience if
you haggle for the best price? I'm not out to hurt anyones feelings I
guess I am just treating it like a business deal. What is the deal here,
is the seller expecting full price even though there are issues that
were not revealed. My FBO did the annual on this plane and missed the
front fork being bent ( a known issue when people use tugs to move the
airplane and turn too sharp) it was clearly out of spec but I wasn't
told anything about it. I think it is a $700.00 or so repair. I also
found fuel seepage on the left wing that I was not told about. Now I
don't know **** about these planes except what I learned on the Internet
and I I wnet right to the troubled items and sure enough there were some
defects. I am not saying that my FBO delibertly tried to mislead me.
What I am saying is that a shop that deals with Mooney's every day would
have caught these issues in 5 minutes. This is why I am confuesed by
some of the posts almost condeming me for wanting a through inspection
that is going to cost me 5 or 6 hundred bucks. And your damn straight I
am going to use whatever the shop finds as a negotiating point. If the
seller balks then so be it. Let him rip someone else off. Make sense?
Thanks!!

Jon Kraus

Jim Carter wrote:
Sounds very reasonable and the honorable way to do business.

I can't understand why some people think the object is to get the lowest
price when the object should be to make an honest deal. Deal with your
trading partner honorably, you'll meet them again sooner or later somehow --
wouldn't it be nice to do so with a clear conscience?

Jon,
I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote. My point was that I also
agree that if I already know the cylinder is low on compression, then I
would consider that before coming to a tentative price. The low compression
is a known issue before the pre-buy. Then if during the pre-buy I discovered
other things that I didn't know, I'd feel entitled to re-negotiate the
tentative price.

I don't think it would be proper to negotiate a tentative price, conduct
a pre-buy, and then come back and try to re-negotiate the price based on
things NOT found during the pre-buy. That would seem to me like I wasn't
negotiating in good faith before the pre-buy.

It's kind of like being given a timed test back when you were in school,
where once the time has run out for part one and you start the time for part
two, you aren't allowed to go back and change answers in part one.

--
Jim Carter
"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
So what I hear you saying is that you won't have a clear conscience if
you haggle for the best price? I'm not out to hurt anyones feelings I
guess I am just treating it like a business deal. What is the deal here,
is the seller expecting full price even though there are issues that
were not revealed. My FBO did the annual on this plane and missed the
front fork being bent ( a known issue when people use tugs to move the
airplane and turn too sharp) it was clearly out of spec but I wasn't
told anything about it. I think it is a $700.00 or so repair. I also
found fuel seepage on the left wing that I was not told about. Now I
don't know **** about these planes except what I learned on the Internet
and I I wnet right to the troubled items and sure enough there were some
defects. I am not saying that my FBO delibertly tried to mislead me.
What I am saying is that a shop that deals with Mooney's every day would
have caught these issues in 5 minutes. This is why I am confuesed by
some of the posts almost condeming me for wanting a through inspection
that is going to cost me 5 or 6 hundred bucks. And your damn straight I
am going to use whatever the shop finds as a negotiating point. If the
seller balks then so be it. Let him rip someone else off. Make sense?
Thanks!!

Jon Kraus

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy. Unless you truly tear into the aircraft,
you don't know what you're getting into. If it's at all close by,
perhaps you could work out a deal to somehow pro-rate the annual
inspection, and just get it done. That way, you will at least have the
peace of mind to know exactly the shape the aircraft is in.

As an aside, I am quite drunk right now. :-) It's fun to hang out at
home, drink beers, and just relax.

Lynne

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..
My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

What is the TT on the engine, and what is the SMOH on the engine? If
either are high, you may be in for a total rebuild. ONE cylinder with
62 would concern me. If it's near TBO, you're probably in for a
rebuild. Typically as an engine ages, compression goes down and oil
usage goes up. Also check to see if the last rebuild included
crankshaft bearings, was it a total rebuild or just a top? Look for
oil in the front of the engine, this is evidence of main bearings
going out. A recently rebuilt engine can have cylinder replacements be
successful, but a good engine shouldn't need them. Like I said, if
it's near TBO, you're probably in for a rebuild, and if the last
rebuild wasn't a major, your probably going to have to major it. Its
not worth it to top a high time engine, IMO.

You haven't made a deal yet, so you can do whatever you want at this
point. Nothing wrong with buying knowing it will need a rebuild so
long as the buy price reflects this. You might get lucky and get 500
more hours, doing nothing.

If the compressions were all good, and no oil usage, you usually can
count on 500 more hours, REGARDLESS of the time on the engine.
Usually, not always. And nothing unusual about running it past TBO.
These Lycomings typically will run well past TBO.

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..
My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

Hi Jon

Here is my take.

I would offer my plane as is where is - faults disclosed for xxx dollars.
If you now make me an offer which I accept, based on the foregoing, I
would not look too kindly on a reduced offer because of a previously
disclosed fault.
However, if you discover a fault that I had not disclosed, then that
would merit discussion. It would not merit that I pick up the tab -
bacause we are talking about an old plane - you cannot expect new
replacements. If for example an instrument was in need of replacement I
may agree to pay up to 50%, but you are not about to get me to pay for a
new instrument.

HTH

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

Haggle all you want, but stop after you've agreed on a price.

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
So what I hear you saying is that you won't have a clear conscience if
you haggle for the best price?

When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
has just come out of an annual. JK

Lynne Miller wrote:

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy. Unless you truly tear into the aircraft,
you don't know what you're getting into. If it's at all close by,
perhaps you could work out a deal to somehow pro-rate the annual
inspection, and just get it done. That way, you will at least have the
peace of mind to know exactly the shape the aircraft is in.

As an aside, I am quite drunk right now. :-) It's fun to hang out at
home, drink beers, and just relax.

Lynne

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..

My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

Doug - Thanks for your remarks. The engine has 420 hours SMOH which
included a new camshaft, new bearings ect. I'm wondering if the main
issue (with the low compression) is that the 420 hours has been over 6
years (and the last year it hardly flew at all). IMHO the plane has not
been flown enough. Like I said I'm an no expert but wouldn't you think
that 70 hours a year is a little light on usage? Could this be the
cause of the low compression on the cylinder? Maybe and mabe not. I have
a mechanical background but it has been years since I turned a wrench
but if I remember about compression checks the procedure was to take a
reading and if it was low then you squirt oil into the low cylinder (wet
compression check)and if the reading came up then the rings were either
worn or sticking. This is because the oil would temporarily seal the
rings but do nothing to seal up the valves. If the reading stayed the
same then you would suspect a valve problem. Please don't flame me too
bad on this because it has ben a while since I've done any engine work.
Although I suspect I'll be doing some owner assisted things with
whatever plane I end up. :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser


Doug wrote:

What is the TT on the engine, and what is the SMOH on the engine? If
either are high, you may be in for a total rebuild. ONE cylinder with
62 would concern me. If it's near TBO, you're probably in for a
rebuild. Typically as an engine ages, compression goes down and oil
usage goes up. Also check to see if the last rebuild included
crankshaft bearings, was it a total rebuild or just a top? Look for
oil in the front of the engine, this is evidence of main bearings
going out. A recently rebuilt engine can have cylinder replacements be
successful, but a good engine shouldn't need them. Like I said, if
it's near TBO, you're probably in for a rebuild, and if the last
rebuild wasn't a major, your probably going to have to major it. Its
not worth it to top a high time engine, IMO.

You haven't made a deal yet, so you can do whatever you want at this
point. Nothing wrong with buying knowing it will need a rebuild so
long as the buy price reflects this. You might get lucky and get 500
more hours, doing nothing.

If the compressions were all good, and no oil usage, you usually can
count on 500 more hours, REGARDLESS of the time on the engine.
Usually, not always. And nothing unusual about running it past TBO.
These Lycomings typically will run well past TBO.

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..

My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser