Unnecessary verbiage or sensible redundancy?

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
[snipped]

However, don't be surprised to hear a controller say "Climb and maintain
one
one thousand, eleven thousand" because there have been some
readback/hearback problems with pure digits.


Many controllers use similar technique with altitude assignments. I tend to
use the phraseology "Climb and maintain one-one, eleven thousand" when such
praseology is prudent, as opposed to "Climb and maintain one one thousand,
eleven thousand" (with it's repetition of the word "thousand").

Also BTW, we had a trainee controller cause an operational error using this
non-prescibed phraseology. His MIA was 4900. He had overflight traffic on
radar at 6000 and a non-radar departure that he was issuing a full IFR
clearance to. The departure was filed for 9000. As part of the detailed
departure clearance with "CRAFT" and all that, he instructed the pilot to
"Climb and maintain five thousand, FIVE" in an attempt to reinforce the 5000
assigned altitude portion of the full clearance. The pilot, doing the full
clearance readback, read back "Climb and maintain five thousand five, blah
blah blah..." The apprentice controller missed the semantical difference
between his phraseology and the pilot's readback and the departure aircraft
got with the overflight.

Chip, ZTL

Chip Jones wrote:


Also BTW, we had a trainee controller cause an operational error using this
non-prescibed phraseology. His MIA was 4900. He had overflight traffic on
radar at 6000 and a non-radar departure that he was issuing a full IFR
clearance to. The departure was filed for 9000. As part of the detailed
departure clearance with "CRAFT" and all that, he instructed the pilot to
"Climb and maintain five thousand, FIVE" in an attempt to reinforce the 5000
assigned altitude portion of the full clearance. The pilot, doing the full
clearance readback, read back "Climb and maintain five thousand five, blah
blah blah..." The apprentice controller missed the semantical difference
between his phraseology and the pilot's readback and the departure aircraft
got with the overflight.


You ought to come here. We have pretty much made the MVA map
irrelavant. We have had the same guy, the SAME GUY, get three airplanes
below the MVA three times in the last 6 months. The investstigation
reveals that the aircraft was not within 2000/3 of the ground or any
obstacles and it goes away.

Newps wrote:
You ought to come here. We have pretty much made the MVA map
irrelavant. We have had the same guy, the SAME GUY, get three airplanes
below the MVA three times in the last 6 months. The investstigation
reveals that the aircraft was not within 2000/3 of the ground or any
obstacles and it goes away.

Um, this isn't the most reassuring post I've seen recently. Isn't there
something you can do about this? If we were hearing about some pilot who
was repeatedly putting others at risk, various people on the group would
be recommending dropping a dime on him.

--
David Rind

David Rind wrote:
Newps wrote:

You ought to come here. We have pretty much made the MVA map
irrelavant. We have had the same guy, the SAME GUY, get three
airplanes below the MVA three times in the last 6 months. The
investstigation reveals that the aircraft was not within 2000/3 of the
ground or any obstacles and it goes away.


Um, this isn't the most reassuring post I've seen recently. Isn't there
something you can do about this? If we were hearing about some pilot who
was repeatedly putting others at risk, various people on the group would
be recommending dropping a dime on him.

Hey, it's the FAA. Safety was never compromised, until you die. Then
maybe it was.

"David Rind" wrote in message
...
Newps wrote:
You ought to come here. We have pretty much made the MVA map
irrelavant. We have had the same guy, the SAME GUY, get three airplanes
below the MVA three times in the last 6 months. The investstigation
reveals that the aircraft was not within 2000/3 of the ground or any
obstacles and it goes away.

Um, this isn't the most reassuring post I've seen recently. Isn't there
something you can do about this? If we were hearing about some pilot who
was repeatedly putting others at risk, various people on the group would
be recommending dropping a dime on him.


See David, if he actually *has* a mid-air or runs someone into a mountain,
FAA will promote him into ATC Management, or else make him a "Quality
Assurance" staff specialist (where he gets to tell real controllers where
they made procedural mistakes). Until his promotion though, his fellow
controllers are stuck carrying him on the roster, and the pilots he serves
are stuck with his "service". After all, we have to run ATC like a
business, and he has certain employment rights. As long as we keep
publically saying "safety was never compromised", the company can't do a
thing...

Chip, ZTL

Chip Jones wrote:
"David Rind" wrote in message
...

Newps wrote:

You ought to come here. We have pretty much made the MVA map
irrelavant. We have had the same guy, the SAME GUY, get three airplanes
below the MVA three times in the last 6 months. The investstigation
reveals that the aircraft was not within 2000/3 of the ground or any
obstacles and it goes away.

Um, this isn't the most reassuring post I've seen recently. Isn't there
something you can do about this? If we were hearing about some pilot who
was repeatedly putting others at risk, various people on the group would
be recommending dropping a dime on him.



See David, if he actually *has* a mid-air or runs someone into a mountain,
FAA will promote him into ATC Management, or else make him a "Quality
Assurance" staff specialist (where he gets to tell real controllers where
they made procedural mistakes). Until his promotion though, his fellow
controllers are stuck carrying him on the roster, and the pilots he serves
are stuck with his "service". After all, we have to run ATC like a
business, and he has certain employment rights. As long as we keep
publically saying "safety was never compromised", the company can't do a
thing...

Chip, ZTL

Chip --

This seems like a topic I'd be intereted in seeing Don Brown address in
one of his AVweb columns. Do you have any objection to my sending him a
copy of this thread?

-- David

--
David Rind