Unnecessary verbiage or sensible redundancy?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Tony Cox" wrote in message
ink.net...

At the risk of beating a dead horse, let me try it another way with
a question for you. To avoid the confusing baggage that might have
blurred the discussion, take this as the situation. You are approaching
a single-runway uncontrolled airport, aligned 2-20. You hear a
radio call from another pilot. There's no reason to suppose him to be
dyslexic, disingenuous, or transmitting on the frequency of a nearby
airport accidentally. In short, just an ordinary situation that happens
to us all the time. Two situations.

1) You hear "Arrakeen traffic, Cessna xx, downwind, two"

2) You hear "Arrakeen traffic, Cessna xx, downwind, zero"

You suppress your immediate instinct to harangue him for
using improper radio terminology. Based on these calls
alone, what do you suppose the other pilot is up to? What
would you think he was up to if the winds were out of the
north?


Whether or not I harangue him for using improper phraseology it's still
improper phraseology. Please restate your question using examples with
proper phraseology.

Well, that would be a different question, now wouldn't it?
Try answering the question I've posed & you'll see what I'm
talking about.

"Tony Cox" wrote in message
ink.net...

Whether or not I harangue him for using improper phraseology it's still
improper phraseology. Please restate your question using examples with
proper phraseology.


Well, that would be a different question, now wouldn't it?
Try answering the question I've posed & you'll see what I'm
talking about.


Try it my way and perhaps you'll see the folly of your position.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Tony Cox" wrote in message
ink.net...

Whether or not I harangue him for using improper phraseology it's still
improper phraseology. Please restate your question using examples with
proper phraseology.


Well, that would be a different question, now wouldn't it?
Try answering the question I've posed & you'll see what I'm
talking about.


Try it my way and perhaps you'll see the folly of your position.

What is so foolish about asking a question?

Say, your ancestors weren't French by any chance were
they? I spent a miserable weekend in Paris trying out my
'O' level language skills some years back. Just about
everyone I attempted to speak to would contemptuously
ignore me if I got noun genders wrong or used the wrong
tense. I just know the ****ers were doing it on purpose.
"Ahh, *le* boeuf" they'd say, as if a light had suddenly gone
off after me trying to order "la boeuf" for 20 minutes.

Surely you don't behave like that in the air do you? Ignoring
every radio call that isn't pedantically canonical? If you tried
that around here, you'd filter out 50% of the calls.

So pinch your nose, suppress your linguistic contempt or
whatever you have to do & tell me what you make of those
(not so hypothetical) radio calls you've hypothetically received
when approaching Arrakeen.

"Tony Cox" wrote in message
ink.net...

Try it my way and perhaps you'll see the folly of your position.


What is so foolish about asking a question?


You're trying to make a case for use of the leading zero. If you can't make
that case using prescribed phraseology, and it is quite clear that you
cannot, then you simply have no case.



Say, your ancestors weren't French by any chance were
they?


No, but some of them may have traveled through France.



I spent a miserable weekend in Paris trying out my
'O' level language skills some years back. Just about
everyone I attempted to speak to would contemptuously
ignore me if I got noun genders wrong or used the wrong
tense. I just know the ****ers were doing it on purpose.
"Ahh, *le* boeuf" they'd say, as if a light had suddenly gone
off after me trying to order "la boeuf" for 20 minutes.

Surely you don't behave like that in the air do you?


Nope.



Ignoring
every radio call that isn't pedantically canonical? If you tried
that around here, you'd filter out 50% of the calls.


Any idea why the knowledge level is so low there?



So pinch your nose, suppress your linguistic contempt or
whatever you have to do & tell me what you make of those
(not so hypothetical) radio calls you've hypothetically received
when approaching Arrakeen.


The pilots are in need of remedial instruction.

"Tony Cox" wrote in message
ink.net...
Whether or not I harangue him for using improper phraseology it's still
improper phraseology. Please restate your question using examples with
proper phraseology.

Well, that would be a different question, now wouldn't it?

How can you argue to change standard phraseology, and yet and the same time
postulate a person not using standard phraseology for the purpose of
defending your position?

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Tony Cox" wrote in message
ink.net...
Whether or not I harangue him for using improper phraseology it's
still
improper phraseology. Please restate your question using examples
with
proper phraseology.

Well, that would be a different question, now wouldn't it?

How can you argue to change standard phraseology, and yet and the same
time
postulate a person not using standard phraseology for the purpose of
defending your position?

Well, first of all it's debatable that there *is* a standard
phraseology. Except at the ICAO level, where prepending
a "zero" is required. Bob Gardner quotes FAA-P-8740-47,
which may or may not have regulatory authority, I'm not sure.
From his description, the guide says there is "no reason" to
enunciate two digits, which is different from prohibiting it.
What would international flights do on approach, for example?

I am not arguing to change 'standard phraseology', whatever that
might mean. I'm inviting you to compare two different methods
of announcing position given that the message is truncated. The
fact that one form may or may not be standard is completely
irrelevant.

Why both you and Steven are so strongly resisting even *considering*
this is a complete mystery to me. You've side-tracked into
claiming I'm against proper radio calls, don't understand CRC's,
have underestimated the number of dyslexic pilots, speak too
damn slowly on the radio and God knows what else. I've reduced
the problem to the absolute bare-arsed, naked 10-line minimum
simplest question I can ask, and you *still* won't answer it. "It's
a stupid question. Ask me another".

Well, that's Usenet, I suppose.