Aviation crash videos on-line

Apparently for some reason you just can't grasp the fact that what I
posted initially was simply a personal statement of distaste.

No, you didn't tell the original poster "I find you personally
distasteful" -- you said "I detest people like you."

That's not a subtle difference.

But when you start branching your "opinions" out of your puddle
jumper cockpit and into my world as a demonstration pilot as an equal,
I'm afraid you have crossed the line with me. You are not my equal, and
on issues like these I will never see you as such.

What you can't seem to grasp is that your inflammatory statement (and my
following post) was NOT about demonstration flying, or even about
puddle-jumper flying -- it was about ethics. And on this subject, sir, I am
at least your equal.

Apparently you have no interest in explaining the ethical logic that must
underlie your somewhat bizarre response to the initial post -- and that, of
course, is your prerogative. But then don't complain to me about being
lectured to about flying -- because that's not what is happening here.

Far from it.

That being said, and considering I don't particularly relish being
lectured by a pleasure pilot on the idiosyncrasies and dangers involved
in a business I have known thousands of hours in as a participant and
you know only as a spectator, if you don't object I'll just allow you
your feelings on the matter whatever they are,and bid you a fond
farewell.

*sigh*

Since I've obviously failed to make my point -- and this is a topic I REALLY
don't care much about -- I will also bid you a fond "Adios" as well...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:yLr_c.103907$9d6.76039@attbi_s54...
Apparently for some reason you just can't grasp the fact that what I
posted initially was simply a personal statement of distaste.

No, you didn't tell the original poster "I find you personally
distasteful" -- you said "I detest people like you."

That's not a subtle difference.

I see.... depends on the meaning of what "is" is; right? Don't know
about you Honek, but if I detest somone, you can be fairly certain that
whatever they might be doing that illicits this response, I would find
personally distasteful, don't you think? Seems like a simple equation to
me!


But when you start branching your "opinions" out of your puddle
jumper cockpit and into my world as a demonstration pilot as an
equal,
I'm afraid you have crossed the line with me. You are not my equal,
and
on issues like these I will never see you as such.

What you can't seem to grasp is that your inflammatory statement (and
my
following post) was NOT about demonstration flying, or even about
puddle-jumper flying -- it was about ethics. And on this subject,
sir, I am
at least your equal.

Well, maybe in your opinion anyway. But not in mine; not if you enjoy
watching crash video for....as you have said....the "thrills"
involved.... was it? I believe what you said exactly was " Personally,
I view aviation videos for the thrill". (I should note here that when
you made this statement, we were discussing aviation crash video outside
the flight safety aspect specifically and not aviation videos per se')


Apparently you have no interest in explaining the ethical logic that
must
underlie your somewhat bizarre response to the initial post -- and
that, of
course, is your prerogative.

I believe I've explained the logic behind my reaction to purient crash
video quite plainly. To reiterate, it's based on fifty years of exposure
to flying airplanes in the environment depicted in these crash videos;
direct involvement as a participant working with the issues involved in
the safety aspects of this scenario; personal experience with the greif
and suffering of friends and associates killed in this scenario; and my
total dislike for those who treat crash video as a hobby, presenting it
in the public forum for sheer entertainment with no regard to the safety
issue and/or the lives they touch by so doing; and my total dislike for
those who willingly partake of these crash videos "for the thrill" they
get from watching them. Need I continue, or is this enough?


But then don't complain to me about being
lectured to about flying -- because that's not what is happening here.

Really.....what's this then?
Honek lectures;
"Flying airplanes in
an air race, wing-tip to wing-tip, is INCREDIBLY dangerous. The odds of
an
accident or incident are high, the odds of violent death are not good."

No kidding....REALLY!!! Why, I NEVER would have known this had you not
taken the time to explain it to me.......and so thoroughly too!!!!! :-))



*sigh*

Yes, a "sigh" is what I would expect from someone who would feel the
need to supply this tidbit of more or less obvious information to
someone else who has spent a lifetime directly involved with the
environment and hardly needs the information explained by someone who
hasn't.

Since I've obviously failed to make my point -- and this is a topic I
REALLY
don't care much about -- I will also bid you a fond "Adios" as well...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Yes, you have failed to make your point, with me at least; whatever that
was, but you did make one point perfectly clear in your last comment.
You obviously "don't care much about the topic" and I do. That's the
basic difference between us and the crux of our disagreement.
I have no desire to end this with you on a bad note Jay. It's just not
worth it for either one of us. Let's end this now before it crosses over
into something it need not become.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

Yes, a "sigh" is what I would expect from someone who would feel the
need to supply this tidbit of more or less obvious information to
someone else who has spent a lifetime directly involved with the
environment and hardly needs the information explained by someone who
hasn't.

I'll say one last thing about this, Dudley, and then we'll move on:

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, but my "obvious" examples were meant to
expand on my ethical point -- not to "educate you" about air racing.

Remember, I wasn't the one expressing dismay and surprise that someone would
actually take a picture (or video) of a plane crash and its aftermath.
Since, to me, this is the ultimate in "more or less obvious information" --
I was quite surprised that you were upset that someone would do this.

Which is why I asked about your logic in the first place.

Sorry I asked.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:0_B_c.296222$eM2.104090@attbi_s51...
Yes, a "sigh" is what I would expect from someone who would feel the
need to supply this tidbit of more or less obvious information to
someone else who has spent a lifetime directly involved with the
environment and hardly needs the information explained by someone
who
hasn't.

I'll say one last thing about this, Dudley, and then we'll move on:

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, but my "obvious" examples were meant
to
expand on my ethical point -- not to "educate you" about air racing.

Remember, I wasn't the one expressing dismay and surprise that someone
would
actually take a picture (or video) of a plane crash and its aftermath.
Since, to me, this is the ultimate in "more or less obvious
information" --
I was quite surprised that you were upset that someone would do this.

Which is why I asked about your logic in the first place.

Sorry I asked.

You don't have to be sorry you asked. The "problem" didn't occur because
you "asked". The problem occurred because what you were "asking" and the
reasons I have for objecting are two different issues that you see as
one simple issue involving a simple definition of the ethics involved.
The "ethics" that I was attacking and will always continue to attack are
not as clearly cut as you would like to have them. The physical act of
taking a picture at an air show disaster is only the tip of a large
iceberg. The REASON for taking that picture, and what the photographer
does with the picture after it's been taken is the area of my concern,
NOT the fact that the picture was taken per se, which seems to be the
crux of everything you have been attempting to "explain" to me.
There is nothing improper about taking photographs or filming a video
during an air race or air show disaster IF the reason for taking these
pictures isn't prurient. A video shot as a record of the event or to be
used as news of the event is one thing. That's ethical. A video of a
crash used in a safety program designed to help prevent the same
accident from happening again is more than ethical. It's advisable!
On the other hand, there are those who take these photographs and film
these videos for no other reason than their own prurient interest; a
record for them personally to "enjoy" watching and to pass on to others
in the public forum as their " the thrill of the day". Photographers who
use these photographs in their "hobby" and present them to the public
seeking only acclaim for their skill as photographers are completely
unethical to us in the airshow community. These people, displaying an
aspect of human nature that will unfortunately always be with us, are in
my opinion unethical. On the airshow circuit we think of them as human
leeches standing there with their cameras waiting for one of us to die
so they can catch the moment on film to later be released by them for
their own purpose unrelated to anything but their own amusement or
profit.
The only ethics involved with this issue are the ethics involved for the
reasons the camera shutter clicks. There are good reasons and there are
bad reasons. The photographers I have so strongly objected to are the
one's with the "bad" reasons; the thrill seekers; the "hobbyists".
Any race or airshow pilot will tell you that the existence of crash
video is a given, and we understand that there will be pictures if
something goes wrong for us. In a way, we welcome it, because it might
help save another pilot's life, but none of us accept the leech
photographers, the paparazzi type, who come to exploit us when something
goes wrong.
These "hobby" video people fit into the unethical category for us, and
yes, we detest them!
As for people outside the airshow community discussing an issue like
this one with us; everyone of course has the right to an opinion, but
it's better that you ASK, rather than TELL when you get into something
as close to the show community as this issue. That's just a friendly
suggestion. Pilots from the community don't mind opposing viewpoint. We
do however, like a pilot to have some actual experience with what we do
before expressing that opinion too loudly :-)
I hope you and I have no hard feelings after this issue has been put
down and can continue our Usenet association in a friendly manner.
Thank you
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

I hope you and I have no hard feelings after this issue has been put
down and can continue our Usenet association in a friendly manner.

That, sir, is a given.

You'll have to work harder than this to **** me off!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
newsoF_c.583$vy.480@attbi_s52...
I hope you and I have no hard feelings after this issue has been put
down and can continue our Usenet association in a friendly manner.

That, sir, is a given.

You'll have to work harder than this to **** me off!

;-)

Fair enough.

Take care,
DH