Another Cirrus 'chute deployment

C,

You cannot prove that something has never happened. However, if anyone will
kindly supply evidence of a Cirrus recovering from a spin without deploying
the parachute, I will happily accept it.


Well, if you cannot prove something has never happened, then I guess you
statement:

"None of the Cirrus models will recover from a spin."

means the burden of proof lies with you.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

(StellaStar) wrote in message ...
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/du...or/9723097.htm

I'm a bit concerned that I never heard about another recent deployment...

"Still, the parachute system has not proven a cure-all, as evidenced by the
Sept. 10 crash of a Cirrus SR22 in Park Falls, Wis. That crash claimed the life
of Gerald Miller, 60, of Seboygan, Wis."

It doesn't make clear whether the old fellow in Sheboygan deployed...

Well, I look at a BRS the same way I look at an ejection seat: as a
last-ditch system that gives you a fighting chance, not a guarantee.

In some cases, say some kind of structural failure or engine failure
over open water, it's a no-brainer. You pull the cord and become a
passenger.

What I'd wonder about, were I wealthy enough to have problems like
this, is what about more marginal cases. Let's say I'm flying up here
in densely populated New England, on top of an overcast at 4000' at
night, and the engine quits. Let's say I've got 1500' ceilings. Do I
pull the plug right away, or do I drop down through? How high do I
have to be for the chute to open properly? Anything I can do to
position myself so that the chute puts me down in that parking lot,
rather than on I-95, or into some hospital building?

Maybe I'm nuts for thinking about a bunch of highly unlikely
situations when there are a dozen other things ten times more likely
to kill me. who knows.

Best,
-cwk.

Thomas Borchert wrote:

Stefan,

As a pilot, I just want a
plane which can be controlled in every situation,

Well, the accident statistics make pilots look pretty bad in that
regard.

If I stalled my aircraft in turbulence at my operational ceiling and got into a spin
part way down, it almost certainly wouldn't wind up in the stats at all. With a
Cirrus, it almost certainly *will* wind up in the stats. The accident statistics
aren't a valid indication of how well pilots do in this case.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
C,

You cannot prove that something has never happened. However, if anyone
will
kindly supply evidence of a Cirrus recovering from a spin without
deploying
the parachute, I will happily accept it.


Well, if you cannot prove something has never happened, then I guess you
statement:

"None of the Cirrus models will recover from a spin."

means the burden of proof lies with you.

Then there are tigers in your yard. Be careful that you do not get eaten.

"Ace Pilot" wrote in message
om...
There's a William K. Graham listed as a certified training instructor
on the Cirrus Design web site. He's from San Diego. Anyone want to bet
that is the same guy in the article? If so, Mr. Graham is a CFI and is
instrument rated, which makes the description of the incident all that
more puzzling.

Not really. He did exactly what I would expect a flight instructor to do.
When he got into an emergency, he followed the manual, not the theories of a
bunch of armchair pilots on Usenet who think they know better than the
aircraft designer on what to do when a Cirrus spins.

The only real question is why he was flying there in the first place, which
has nothing to do with whether he was flying a Cirrus -- a point that is
lost on some around here.

("Ace Pilot" wrote)
There's a William K. Graham listed as a certified training instructor
on the Cirrus Design web site. He's from San Diego. Anyone want to bet
that is the same guy in the article? If so, Mr. Graham is a CFI and is
instrument rated, which makes the description of the incident all that
more puzzling.


From the Duluth News Tribune story - reporting on the Sept 10th Park
Falls, Wisconsin crash.

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/du...or/9723097.htm

Byron "Buzz" Oyster, a flight instructor from Duluth who was also in the
plane, sustained critical injuries and remains hospitalized at St.
Joseph Hospital in Marshfield, Wis. His condition was listed as "fair"
Tuesday.


Flight instructor from Duluth? Wonder if this fellow is connected with
the factory?


Montblack

Stefan,


As a pilot, I just want a
plane which can be controlled in every situation,

No such animal.

("C Kingsbury" wrote)
snip
What I'd wonder about, were I wealthy enough to have problems like
this, is what about more marginal cases. Let's say I'm flying up here
in densely populated New England, on top of an overcast at 4000' at
night, and the engine quits. Let's say I've got 1500' ceilings. Do I
pull the plug right away, or do I drop down through? How high do I
have to be for the chute to open properly? Anything I can do to
position myself so that the chute puts me down in that parking lot,
rather than on I-95, or into some hospital building?


From the Cirrus web page:
http://www.cirrusdesign.com/servicec...ml/pohmain.asp

(Same link as above)
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T27445959

(I put you in an SR20. Hope that's ok)

SR20 POH
Section 3 - Emergency Procedures (randomly cut/pasted)


Emergency Landing (Engine-out):
Flaps
Up................................................ ......................
........86 KIAS
Flaps
50%............................................... ......................
......81 KIAS
Flaps
100%.............................................. ......................
.....75 KIAS

Maximum Glide Ratio ~ 10.9 : 1

.. Note .
With a seized or failed engine, the distance that the airplane
will glide will be more than the distance it would glide with the
engine at idle, such as during training.

If the propeller is windmilling, some additional glide range may
be achieved by moving the Power Lever to idle and increasing
airspeed by 5 to 10 knots.

(Cirrus Airplane Parachute System - CAPS)
The minimum demonstrated altitude loss for a CAPS
deployment from a one-turn spin is 920 feet. Activation at
higher altitudes provides enhanced safety margins for
parachute recoveries. Do not waste time and altitude trying to
recover from a spiral/spin before activating CAPS.

(V-PD) Maximum Demonstrated Parachute Deployment Speed is
the maximum speed at which parachute deployment has
been demonstrated.

The maximum demonstrated deployment speed is 135 KIAS.
Reducing airspeed allows minimum parachute loads and prevents
structural overload and possible parachute failure.


Bon voyage :-)

Montblack

"Hilton" wrote in message link.net...
C J Campbell wrote:
There is not enough rudder
authority to recover. The Cirrus has never demonstrated a spin recovery,
though it has been tried.

I don't believe either of these statements are correct - if you have
references agreeing with you, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

In fact, the SR22 POH says: "If time and altitude permit, the following
procedures may be used to determine whether the aircraft is in a recoverable
spiral/incipient spin or is unrecoverable and, therefore, has departed
controlled flight." It then goes on to give the spin recovery checklist:

1. Power Lever .................IDLE
2. Control Yoke ............... Neutral
3. Rudder ......................... Briskly Apply Opposite Yaw/Spin
Direction

Hilton

Please provide us with the location of the above quote from the SR22
POH. The POH is on-line he
http://www.cirrusdesign.com/servicec...ml/pohmain.asp
I found this: "Do not waste time and altitude trying to recover from
a spiral/spin before activating CAPS." (Section 3, Page 3-20)

Gerd
ATP

"C J Campbell" wrote:

"C J Campbell" wrote:
None of the Cirrus models will recover from a spin.

Oh, baloney, Chris.

If it is baloney, show me even one single instance where a Cirrus
recovered
from a spin.

sigh All right, I'll start digging. I know I've read that CD factory
pilots have recovered from spins many times: I'll find it. And BTW,
why are spin recovery procedures given in the POH?

Meanwhile, what backup have you got for your assertion that "None of the
Cirrus models will recover from a spin?" Certification standards
applied to the airplanes don't count.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM